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Sunday, February 11, 2018

The anti-Churchian Alt-Right

First Things gets the Alt-Right wrong by concentrating solely on the anti-Christian, media-dancing minority:
Almost everything written about the “alternative right” in mainstream outlets is wrong in one respect. The alt-right is not stupid. It is deep. Its ideas are not ridiculous. They are serious. To appreciate this fact, one needs to inquire beyond its presence on social media, where its obnoxious use of insult, obscenity, and racism has earned it a reputation for moral idiocy. The reputation is deserved, but do not be deceived. Behind its online tantrums and personal attacks are arguments of genuine power and expanding appeal. As political scientist George Hawley conceded in a recent study, “Everything we have seen over the past year suggests that the alt-right will be around for the foreseeable future.”

To what is the movement committed? The alt-right purports to defend the identity and interests of white people, who it believes are the compliant victims of a century-long swindle by liberal morality. Its goals are not conventionally conservative. It does not so much question as mock standard conservative positions on free trade, abortion, and foreign policy, regarding them as principles that currently abet white dispossession. Its own principles are not so abstract, and do not pretend to neutrality. Its creed, in the words of Richard Spencer, is “Race is real. Race matters. Race is the foundation of identity.” The media take such statements as proof of the alt-right’s commitment to white supremacy. But this is misleading. For the alt-right represents something more nefarious, and frankly more interesting, than white identity politics.

The alt-right is anti-Christian. Not by implication or insinuation, but by confession. Its leading thinkers flaunt their rejection of Christianity and their desire to convert believers away from it. Greg Johnson, an influential theorist with a doctorate in philosophy from Catholic University of America, argues that “Christianity is one of the main causes of white decline” and a “necessary condition of white racial suicide.” Johnson edits a website that publishes footnoted essays on topics that range from H. P. Lovecraft to Martin Heidegger, where a common feature is its subject’s criticisms of Christian doctrine. “Like acid, Christianity burns through ties of kinship and blood,” writes Gregory Hood, one of the website’s most talented essayists. It is “the essential religious step in paving the way for decadent modernity and its toxic creeds.”

Alt-right thinkers are overwhelmingly atheists, but their worldview is not rooted in the secular Enlightenment, nor is it irreligious. Far from it. Read deeply in their sources—and make no mistake, the alt-right has an intellectual tradition—and you will discover a movement that takes Christian thought and culture seriously. It is a conflicted tribute paid to their chief adversary. Against Christianity it makes two related charges. Beginning with the claim that Europe effectively created Christianity—not the other way around—it argues that Christian teachings have become socially and morally poisonous to the West. A major work of alt-right history opens with a widely echoed claim: “The introduction of Christianity has to count as the single greatest ideological catastrophe to ever strike Europe.”
This is little more than Churchian virtue-signaling. The author should be embarrassed by making a mistake very similar to the one that he criticizes the mainstream media for making. Nor is his attempt to marginalize the Alt-Right as an intrinsically anti-Christian philosophy even remotely coherent, as one cannot both a) characterize its Spencerian aspects as defining its limits while simultaneously b) claiming that it is 100 years old and traces its intellectual roots back to Oswald Spengler.

What most people don't realize is that the mainstream media still regularly contacts me for "the Alt-Right perspective" on current events. However, I no longer talk to them because they never, ever, quoted me in the pieces on the Alt-Right they subsequently ran, even when I provided The New York Times, or The Atlantic, or CBS with direct, substantive, and unevasive answers to their questions. The reason they never ran any quotes, of course, is that my words did not fit their preconceived narrative, while the media-dancing performance art of Richard Spencer and Andrew Anglin did, just as Greg Johnson's anti-Christianity and homosexuality fits the narrative that Matthew Rose and First Things are pushing in order to discredit and demonize the Alt-Right in the eyes of its readership.

But their efforts will fail and they will only discredit themselves, because they are observably not rooted in the easily verifiable truth. The Alt-Right doesn't just stand for the European races, but for the West. And Christianity is as integral and irreplaceable an element of Western civilization as the European races; it is one of the three pillars of the West. The Alt-Right supports genuine Bible-based traditional Christianity, not the evil globalist Churchianity that presently wears so many nominally Christian organizations like a demon-possessed skinsuit.

To be clear, I'm not blaming Greg, Richard, or Andrew for the fact that both the mainstream media and the Christian media happen to find their particular perspectives to be useful. I am simply pointing out that, once again, the media simply cannot be trusted to report on philosophical matters such as these in an accurate, honest, or intelligent manner.

The Alt-Right is not an anti-Christian philosophy. It is pro-Christian and anti-Churchian. And as Instapundit noted, "with most churches being temples of social justice", the open enmity between the globalist Judeo Christ-worshiping Churchians and both the Christian and non-Christian factions of the Alt-Right is hardly a surprise.

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126 Comments:

Blogger Dirtnapninja February 11, 2018 8:13 AM  

There is an anti-christian strain in the Alt right. But there is also a powerful trad strain as well. Orthodoxy and trad catholicism are both quite popular in the alt right.

Blogger Timmy3 February 11, 2018 8:18 AM  

It’s sad when Christians and Christianity converged. Distorting one’s beliefs is what happens to Christians. Then it doubles down on to politics. Nothing is recognizable.

Blogger VD February 11, 2018 8:20 AM  

There is an anti-christian strain in the Alt right.

Of course there is. But it is much stronger in the Fake Right. The whole game is to claim that Spencer is the totality of the Alt-Right and thereby prevent conservatives frustrated with 50 years of failure from moving to a more effective alternative.

The media ALWAYS attempts to anoint fake leaders who will defang the intellectual threat. They did it with the Neocons and the Tea Party. They tried and failed to do so with GamerGate. Jury is still out on the Alt-Right.

It won't be long before they try to anoint Ben Shapiro the leader of the Alt-Right. That will probably be their backup plan when they give up on the Spencer gambit, which I suspect they have already signaled with the Eli Mosley piece. The point is to harmlessly ground all of the political and intellectual energy.

Blogger Lovekraft February 11, 2018 8:21 AM  

Thought of a new category: COI or Common Objective Index.

So we have CEI (Common Experience Index) and CII (Common Identity Index) and this third one.

Needs to be fleshed out some more, but putting these into stark numerical terms will clear away much of the vagueness and arbitrariness that cultural marxism has mired us in (diversity? what does that even mean? Probe a little and it is an empty slogan).

Final note. If a person or group or organization turns out to be in the negative on the Index, rest assured, they are actively working against your interests.

Blogger VD February 11, 2018 8:24 AM  

By the way, I suspect the media's sudden new respect for Jordan Peterson is primarily due to the fact that he is a) not a Christian and b) psychologically weak. I very much doubt that he would be accorded the same respect, regardless of his success, if he was a strong Christian. He would have gotten the Milo treatment instead.

Blogger Bobiojimbo February 11, 2018 8:33 AM  

@VD "Jordan Peterson is... psychologically weak."

You owe me nothing, but I certainly would be interested in hearing you expand upon this.

Blogger Quilp February 11, 2018 8:36 AM  

I'm certainly anti Judeo Christianity. Perhaps that is what has panties in a wad over at First Things. I thought we had beat back the use of Christianity as a political weapon, against Christians. But apparently now those calling themselves "Christianity" are going to use it as well, in a purging exercise. That probably feels good to many of them, and they get high fives from the left while doing so. It won't work. The social Anarchy of what they propose has never been a part of Christian teaching as far as I can tell.

Blogger MJ Meyers February 11, 2018 8:36 AM  

At this rate of hate-on by the media with alt-hit pieces, there'll be the next next Monkey-Scopes trial in a decade. The younger generation sees the lady doth protesting too much, they thinks:

http://amp.sacbee.com/news/local/education/article199440204.html?__twitter_impression=true

Notice how the Sacramento Bee was figuratively salivating at the thought of releasing this minor's name.

Blogger Jack Burroughs February 11, 2018 8:41 AM  

VD: "First Things gets the Alt-Right wrong by concentrating solely on the anti-Christian, media-dancing minority"

You're right that there is nothing intrinsically anti-Christian about the essence of the Alt Right. But how can you be sure that the Christians of the Alt Right are the majority?

Blogger VD February 11, 2018 8:43 AM  

You owe me nothing, but I certainly would be interested in hearing you expand upon this.

He occasionally cries at public events and he's on at least two anti-depressants by his own admission. In my opinion, he's a good man doing good work, but he is likely to break under serious pressure. If you haven't been through a public hate campaign like Milo or Roosh, or to a much lesser extent, Cernovich or me, you can't understand what it is like.

I very much doubt Peterson would be able to psychologically survive one in good shape.

Blogger VD February 11, 2018 8:46 AM  

But how can you be sure that the Christians of the Alt Right are the majority?

Because I am familiar with the population demographics of the West. Unless you subscribe to the media's theory that it is a very, very tiny group that follows Richard Spencer, non-Christians cannot be the majority.

Pat Buchanan's followers alone probably outnumber the non-Christian Alt-Right. This is why the anti-Christian pagans are so stupid. They have absolutely no chance whatsoever; there are already more Muslims in Europe than Nordic pagans.

Blogger Jack Burroughs February 11, 2018 9:02 AM  

VD: "Because I am familiar with the population demographics of the West. Unless you subscribe to the media's theory that it is a very, very tiny group that follows Richard Spencer, non-Christians cannot be the majority."

Fair enough. But many "Christians," demographically speaking, are extremely casual Christians indeed. One could say of quite a few of them that they are only nominally Christian, while being unconsciously inclined to paganism in their actual lives. So there are Christians, and then there are Christians. I would be surprised if committed, serious Christians compose the majority of the Alt Right today. Though one day they might, of course. Things can change.

"Pat Buchanan's followers alone probably outnumber the non-Christian Alt-Right. This is why the anti-Christian pagans are so stupid."

It would be self-defeatingly stupid for the Alt Right to be committedly anti-Christian. But publishing articles that criticize the negative effects some versions of Christianity have had on the collective prospects of white people is not the same as being anti-Christian. Criticism is not intolerance. Even Richard Spencer--who is an atheist, I think--says that he is culturally pro-Christian.

So I think the article overstates the anti-Christianity of the "anti-Christian" element of the Alt Right.

VD: "They have absolutely no chance whatsoever; there are already more Muslims in Europe than Nordic pagans."

There was a time when there were no Christians in Europe. Religious transformations can sweep societies when the conditions are right.

When the time comes for Europeans to fight, it just might be that millions of young European men suddenly find Nordic paganism to be the more galvanizing and glorious religion.

It could happen.

Blogger Lovekraft February 11, 2018 9:04 AM  

@5 VD: JP, when asked about the JQ at some discussion, replied "I can't talk about it."

There's a hidden meaning to this answer. Why he 'can't' talk about this is very telling and is an indictment in itself, if you think about it.

Blogger Peaceful Poster February 11, 2018 9:04 AM  

The Alt-Right doesn't just stand for the European races

Vox, what would you say are the main European races?

Blogger Tamaqua February 11, 2018 9:04 AM  

The neo-pagan weirdos have read too much Rosenberg. Their entire antipathy to Christianity is wrapped up in the theory that Christianity is a Jewish tool to control the “natural” racial instinct of white Europeans.

Personally, I’m a Catholic, and the idea of reviving the cult of Odin and praying to trees or Stonehenge is ridiculous. The modern neopagans are larpers. That being said, I refuse to support this false pope and his program of submission to Islam. What we need is a return to muscular Christianity. We need to reintroduce the spirit of the Military Orders before we can restore the balance of power.

Blogger tz February 11, 2018 9:07 AM  

The article has one point:

Where liberalism offers security and comfort, the alt-right promises sacrifice and conflict. 

It also promises VICTORY. Deus Vult. In this sign you will conquer.

The Cuckervatives and Churchians find any conflict as gauche. It may be worse in that they simply fear man more than God.

The Libertarians erred (before they were converged) because they wanted a big technocratic liberty with insurance, arbitration, and a bunch of complex private machinery to replace big government with an equivalent.

But liberty comes from not being a slave to sin. To taking personal responsibility. And taking risks, else why have liberty? The persons must be refined and forged into good moral actors, then they don't need government, nor big private nanny.

Another point is the labeling. Many people here are more alt-right than those who have been labeled such, but would reject the label. They will deny racism (except for Israel's ethnostate). But they've rediscovered the earlier culture and are fighting for it.

And that is the essence of the difference. The left is the enemy and we are at war - conflict. Either you fight or you get run over. The alt-right is Christendom, Western Civilization, militant. Crusaders. Those who will not only take up the Cross to follow Jesus, but those who will take up the sword when necessary. And because the cucked Churchians have either lauded the devils coming in, or avoided the conflict, the sword will be necessary. We need Churchill because we've had Chamberlain proclaiming peace, "peace in our time", when there is no peace.

And the deaths are real. Do Churchians every mention the Abortion Holocaust? Or only that one in Europe before most people alive today were born?

Blogger Mr.MantraMan February 11, 2018 9:10 AM  

Jack please come back to this plane of existence. For lack of a better term I've been a norse pagan since my youth, you are or you are not, no conversions, if a person is the typical lost puppy person then they need dream catchers, crystals or drugs, or better yet a conversion to Christianity.

As for the Christian clergy especially the white ones they seem to be the type who would be crying while they beg permission to sodomize you.

Blogger Bobiojimbo February 11, 2018 9:11 AM  

@10 VD, thank you. That's incredibly unfortunate to hear.

Blogger Otto Lamp February 11, 2018 9:12 AM  

Anti-Christian? No. Anti-churchian? Yes.



Blogger The Kurgan February 11, 2018 9:16 AM  

Ther is a reason the MOTW chose to be known as either hard right or Alt-West. It sidesteps all the confusion.
Of course the Alt-West has not yet got as large a media exposure as the Alt-Right but that is intentional too by the MSM.

Alt-West will grow slowly as a term, but will clearly be harder to “misidentify” than the Alt-Right.

Blogger Jack Burroughs February 11, 2018 9:19 AM  

"Jack please come back to this plane of existence. For lack of a better term I've been a norse pagan since my youth, you are or you are not, no conversions, if a person is the typical lost puppy person then they need dream catchers, crystals or drugs, or better yet a conversion to Christianity."

You don't really get to say what someone else identifies with, or whether they can covert to paganism. Sure, you can refuse to accept pagan converts if you want--but, speaking of self-defeating behavior, why you ever do that under these conditions?

It's just a fact that many people *are* converting to pagan religions. You can call them larpers, but that is just a dismissive term of abuse. If they take it seriously, and in a lasting way, then they are not larpers, however ridiculous you may find them.

Pagan conversions are happening, and in fast growing numbers, whether you respect it or not.

Blogger manfred arcane February 11, 2018 9:21 AM  

@5
I'm not so sure about that, ie him not being a Christian. His understanding of Christianity on purely theological or mystical ground is often embarrassingly shaky, that much is obvious from his Bible lectures (especially when he tries to deal with the questions asked by his audience). There is one particularly good example of this: I don't recall which one of his Bible lectures it was, but after it was over someone from the audience questioned him in regards to question of evil and ye olde flawed creation = flawed creator conclusion, and the way he dealt with it had even an ignoramus like myself thinking that I could do it infinitely better (especially annoying since the tone of guy who asked that question made it clear where he was coming from, that his was an anti-Christian position and that he thought himself in possession of perfect anti-Christian argument). I suspect that others who watched the lecture in question will instantly remember that bit.

But, I do suspect that he considers himself a Christian. If he is afraid of openly admitting that, it is because he is aware that it could pass for academic and media suicide and that such an admission would alienate a fair bit of his newfound audience.

Blogger Jack Burroughs February 11, 2018 9:22 AM  

"As for the Christian clergy especially the white ones they seem to be the type who would be crying while they beg permission to sodomize you."

This is another powerful reason why a resurgent European paganism might be more galvanizing to men who are on the precipice of fighting a civil war.

Blogger BriarRabbit February 11, 2018 9:23 AM  

Pointing out facts is now an "incident".

“Many of you have asked me what our school is doing in response to this incident. I want you to know we are taking this incident very seriously and we will be reviewing the incident and implementing all measures as appropriate to provide a safe and inclusive environment for all of our students.”

I LOVE this shit-show. Mohwer popcornz puhleez!

Blogger Mr.MantraMan February 11, 2018 9:23 AM  

The host of this blog talks about the reliability of the converted, I'll leave it at that.

And no I cannot see norse pagans taking in the lost puppy people as anything more than disposable slaves or human sacrifices.

Blogger tz February 11, 2018 9:24 AM  

@12 Paganism is false, so it can't substitute. At best you can LARP. Christians belive "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again". Does even one Pagan really belive Odin, Thor, etc. really exist, and that they give spiritual power and victory?

Muslims believe in Allah. That their deaths can glorify them. And that if they give in to temptation or violate the Koran that they will be condemned to hell.

Why do you believe Europeans will find faith in Odin but not that Muslims would find Christ?

Only Christians believe in something similar, that martyrdom is good and proper for a Christian, even when it is with sword or gun in hand.

Is anyone going to behave or sacrifice their lives for Odin? Maybe, but there are also the transgendered.

Also there's the Holy Spirit. The power of Pentecost. God's promises if we could just stop looking at facebook long enough to read them. That the just shall live by faith. And a small amount of faith with a large amount of grace can move mountains?

I've often said we need another Great Awakening, or a revival, but didn't consider it would be externally militant. I think in this case it would have to be. Chuck Baldwin (of libertyfellowshipmt.com) says every able male needs an assault rifle - not a hunting rifle. And wants to return to America with the founder's understanding of Natural Law and the Constitution. I think that is the pattern, that if we really want it enough and pray and fast for it, that we can get.

(In last week's sermon, he went through the excessive wealth of the Televangelist prosperity preachers - their private jets, estates, cars, etc. - more Churchians).

Blogger VD February 11, 2018 9:24 AM  

Fair enough. But many "Christians," demographically speaking, are extremely casual Christians indeed. One could say of quite a few of them that they are only nominally Christian, while being unconsciously inclined to paganism in their actual lives. So there are Christians, and then there are Christians. I would be surprised if committed, serious Christians compose the majority of the Alt Right today. Though one day they might, of course. Things can change.

Your case is so weak that it borders on dishonest because you don't apply the same standard to Christians and pagans. Even the most casual Christian is more genuinely and sincerely Christian than 99.999% of the self-professed pagans in the West today.

The very best, most virtuous and noble form of paganism failed when confronted by sincere Christianity. The weak and tenuous shadow of that paganism is not going to succeed where the strong paganism of an intellectual Roman emperor did not.

Blogger BriarRabbit February 11, 2018 9:28 AM  

"But many "Christians," demographically speaking, are extremely casual Christians indeed."

As the decline progresses, polarity increases. Moderates in all areas will be forced to go to one end of the spectrum or the other.

I have many friends who would normally identify as "liberal", but have moved firmly into Camp Trump because they have been publicly accused of Muh raycizm and Muh Nazi!

Blogger VD February 11, 2018 9:28 AM  

You don't really get to say what someone else identifies with, or whether they can covert to paganism.

And yet, you are trying to do precisely that with regards to Christians, as well as setting yourself up as the arbiter of the sincerity of their beliefs.

You should know better than to try to play a double game here, of all places.

This is another powerful reason why a resurgent European paganism might be more galvanizing to men who are on the precipice of fighting a civil war.

Another Christian revival is vastly more likely. FFS, Hindu pagans outnumber European pagans in the West.

Blogger manfred arcane February 11, 2018 9:30 AM  

Johnson, at least, improved his position on Christianity. Also, nowadays you have a fair number of contributions on the CC blog that are either pro-Christian or where their authors show respect towards Christian tradition even if they don't identify as Christians.

Things are certainly way better than they were years ago when they had articles that basically parroted Leftist anti-Christian positions:
https://www.counter-currents.com/2014/06/moses-the-egyptian/

Blogger Otto Lamp February 11, 2018 9:31 AM  

"When the time comes for Europeans to fight, it just might be that millions of young European men suddenly find Nordic paganism to be the more galvanizing and glorious religion. "

People don't die for things that know aren't true, and Nordic paganism is too easily disproved for it to become widespread today. Not that there aren't SOME people who would buy into it.

Decades ago I worked with a guy that claimed to be a Nazi storm trooper. He said some German association had given him the title, and thus it was true. He was a 35 year old cook at a fried chicken restaurant. Likely, that's all he ever was.

He clung to the title, because it gave his otherwise meaningless life some meaning. I'm sure there are some Nordic pagans who cling to the belief for the same reason, but I doubt there are enough to ever amount to a significant number (certainly not enough for an army).


Blogger Robert Browning February 11, 2018 9:31 AM  

What the hell is a Jew/Catholic or an atheist/Catholic?? First Things has both as editors. Christ named the Jews, the Jews. Jew means those that reject the teachings of Christ. Those that reject the Gospel. Either you accept the teachings of Christ or you don't. Something about this group smells funny.

OpenID karsten01 February 11, 2018 9:33 AM  

"Pat Buchanan's followers alone probably outnumber the non-Christian Alt-Right."

I'm not a "follower" of anyone, but I am certainly an admirer of Pat Buchanan. I am also non-Christian.

There is no contradiction, because if there's anything that's characteristic of the Alt-Right, is that they tend not to be followers of anyone, but pick and choose ideas on a case-by-case basis.

Non-Christian, non-pan-Europeans: they exist.

"Even Richard Spencer--who is an atheist, I think--says that he is culturally pro-Christian."

Yes, that is my position as well. I consider myself culturally Christian, culturally Norse, culturally Classical -- all three being part of the noble, white Western inheritance. But I don't actually believe in anything immaterial. It's as an aesthetic phenomenon that all of these traditions are great and important.

Blogger FUBARwest February 11, 2018 9:34 AM  

@5 That certainly is one explanation for that recent trend I noticed and wondered about. I had thought it was because JP offers, at least on the surface level, an alternative to the the serious side of the Alt-Right and the media, being short-sided like they seem to be, want to support that rather than deal with the 16 points and the arguments here on this blog.

Blogger S1AL February 11, 2018 9:34 AM  

'Fair enough. But many "Christians," demographically speaking, are extremely casual Christians indeed.'

This has always been the case. Contrary to the misplaced nostalgia that's so common, America's rate of church attendance is actually the highest it's ever been.

The key, now, is not doing a better job of getting people into churches, but rather ensuring that the leadership isn't corrupted. And that's a problem for every branch and denomination.

Blogger Steve February 11, 2018 9:35 AM  

Wotanist LARPing is the natural next step from Richard Spencer's implicit homosexuality.

The Spencerite brand of Alt-Right (and since the autobeclownification at Charlottesville they seem to "own" the label, personally I'd just let them have it and move on) is neither serious or deep.

It's just glibber, gayer white nationalism with boy band haircuts. And white nationalism has always been a dead end, the honky equivalent of WE WUZ KANGZ, a philosophy of failure and wishcasting that appeals to the marginalised and the dumb and the gullible but does nothing for actual white people except play up the heel role our enemies have scripted for us.

Real nationalism holds a lot more promise than the oddball, freak flag, tiki torches and sad trombone bowdlerisation Mr Spencer is selling. The new leader of Western Civilization, Donald J. Trump, has achieved more in the past two years than all the crypto-nazi cults going back to George Lincoln Rockwell put together (to be fair, it's easy to out-achieve a net negative).

For race is not the foundation of Western identity, nation and religion and culture and language are equally or more compelling sources of in-group cohesion and confidence.

Blogger VD February 11, 2018 9:39 AM  

since the autobeclownification at Charlottesville they seem to "own" the label, personally I'd just let them have it and move on

That's exactly what the media wants you to do. Do you not understand that the exact same thing will happen again to whatever new label you choose?

Seriously, this isn't that hard. Do you never stop to think WHY they are so desperate to chase people away from every new term that appears?

Blogger VD February 11, 2018 9:41 AM  

For race is not the foundation of Western identity, nation and religion and culture and language are equally or more compelling sources of in-group cohesion and confidence.

Nation and identity are subsets of race. Race is only irrelevant because it is too large a category.

Blogger The Cooler February 11, 2018 9:47 AM  

There is an anti-christian strain in the Alt right.

These same people also tend to call themselves Nietzschean but are unable to fight through the dissonance induced by the fact that Nietzsche had nothing but good things to say about the Crusades.

For race is not the foundation of Western identity

Blood is not the only thing, no. It is, however, the first thing. No bodies, no minds.

Blogger Chicago Robb February 11, 2018 9:49 AM  

It won't be long before they try to anoint Ben Shapiro the leader of the Alt-Right.

Based on the what is happening here in the Twin cities with him coming to speak at the U, I think the left is already there.
Maybe a certain Native Minnesotan, former local columnist and best selling author could come speak? I'm sure they would welcome this person with open arms/ sarc/.

Blogger Otto Lamp February 11, 2018 9:53 AM  

"It's just a fact that many people *are* converting to pagan religions. You can call them larpers..."

I think LARPER is exactly the right term.

While paganism may be culturally appealing, I doubt may actually believe Thor and Loki exist.

The irony is Christianity has strong masculine traditions--traditions that would appeal to pagan larpers--that are being suppressed by churchianity.

Honor, self-denial, and discipline are all Christian ideals.

Chruchianity considers the Crusades a blot on Christian history, yet when you study them they were a noble cause--protecting Christians against Islam. We should be honoring the spirit of the Crusades, not vilifying it.

Blogger Solaire Of Astora February 11, 2018 9:58 AM  

http://archive.is/sI5a0

This right here is a sign of what's to come. The media can't stop kids going onto /pol/.

Blogger Salt February 11, 2018 10:15 AM  

VD wrote:Do you never stop to think WHY they are so desperate to chase people away from every new term that appears?

One term they'll never chase us away from - #WINNERS

OpenID qualitycontrol1 February 11, 2018 10:16 AM  

"There is an anti-christian strain in the Alt right."

I think it's more an anti-churchian strain than an anti-christian strain. The significant part of these people are 15 to 25 year old white men who happen to be agnostic because they never met a good christian role model.

Blogger James Dixon February 11, 2018 10:16 AM  

> When the time comes for Europeans to fight, it just might be that millions of young European men suddenly find Nordic paganism to be the more galvanizing and glorious religion.

If Christ were who you obviously think he is, mayhap. But if he's who he claimed he is, no.

The truth has a power all it's own, and false idols cannot stand against it.

Blogger pyrrhus February 11, 2018 10:19 AM  

Something that just occurred to me....Vardis Fisher, the author of 'Mountain Man', made into the movie 'Jeremiah Johnson' with Robert Redford, saw the destruction of the traditional West coming from afar, and connected that with what he saw as the softness and pliability of Christianity to modernity. Which puzzled me at the time. But what he saw was Churchianity, not Christianity (the rot had already set in) and the fact that Churchianity had no limits......He was so right. Sacrificing babies to Moloch was nothing compared to the child trafficking and organ harvesting going on in the modern world.

Blogger McChuck February 11, 2018 10:22 AM  

@36 - This is a tree. And this is a tree. This is also a tree. There are a whole lot of trees in this area, gathered together. They share certain similarities in their treeness - these are all deciduous, not a single evergreen in sight. And it has been so for time out of mind.

Yet you assert that there is no such thing as a forest. Do you also assert that pines are identical to oaks? They are both trees, after all.

Blogger michimartini February 11, 2018 10:25 AM  

...because we've had Chamberlain proclaiming peace, "peace in our time", when there is no peace.

Nice stealthy Isaiah quote, i like that.

Blogger rondolf February 11, 2018 10:30 AM  

"Race offers no inheritance, and its mere preservation reflects no human achievement." This is a quote near the end of the First Thing's article, and while he is saying this partially in reference to eternity, he also is stating this in a temporal sense, and that is just stupid and destructive. I'm sure Vox would ask him to tell that to the Amerindians.

Blogger Crush Limbraw February 11, 2018 10:34 AM  

Just like the blogger who panned the Alt-Right 16 points, this one is operating with surface knowledge - which leads to presumptuous conclusions. These bastahds just don't like to do their homework - which is research.
When you point out the sources - they won't read them. Reminds me of Vox's comment on rationalizing one's own beliefs without checking out all references.
The whole affair turns into big freaking waste of time.

Blogger Unknown February 11, 2018 10:44 AM  

They keep dancing around the 16 Points, and I expect it'll be several more years. By that point, it'll be too late.

(Attempt #7 or something to find a client/login that works.)

Blogger michimartini February 11, 2018 10:45 AM  

No, a Jew who accepts Jesus as his messiah is still a jew - a completed jew. But the pharisees will of course claim otherwise. They are provably wrong. Also they have no problem accepting theists as their fellow jews. Which shows who their real father is.

Blogger Looking Glass February 11, 2018 10:46 AM  

And I've updated my profile name to, hopefully, reflect my "identity". I really wish I could figure out why nothing beyond Google logins will work with their system.

Blogger michimartini February 11, 2018 10:48 AM  

I meant atheists, not theists.

Blogger Robert Browning February 11, 2018 11:11 AM  

michimartini wrote:No, a Jew who accepts Jesus as his messiah is still a jew - a completed jew. But the pharisees will of course claim otherwise. They are provably wrong. Also they have no problem accepting theists as their fellow jews. Which shows who their real father is.

No. The expectations the Jews have of their messiah and the promise of the Jew religion to the Jews is the enslavement of humankind for the benefit of the Jews. Christ did not deliver for the Jews. Christ can not and never will be regarded as the Jew messiah. Christ refused to enslave the non-Jews for the benefit of the Jews. How does the slave master worship the slave emancipator? It is an impossibility.

Blogger The Kurgan February 11, 2018 11:18 AM  

It won’t. Pagans got their ass handed to them by warrior Catholics.
There is some indication a remnant of them are slowly awakening from slumber thanks to the Bergoglian Satanic Apostate “Church” and its ongoing blasphemies and heresies.

Blogger Koanic February 11, 2018 11:24 AM  

> If he is afraid of openly admitting that

Then he isn't one.

> The very best, most virtuous and noble form of paganism failed when confronted by sincere Christianity.

Discounting the power of 2,000 years of memetic evolution is how Christians lost the West. The general rule is that universalist religions beat pagan tribal ones. But these pagans are trying to build a universalist religion. By Revelations, they will succeed. There is old power in the Watchers' Zodiac.

I think Christendom will win this round, but the pagans made a better showing than the Christians last time. They may have lost to the Communist Universalists, but at least they fought on the right side.

If the economics-driven K swing is inevitable, then r degeneracy will melt like snow in Hell. That will leave a muscular paganism 2.0 squaring off against Christianity for the rematch. The pagans have learned from defeat, but has victory defeated the Church?

Christianity had better relearn how to rule a nation in a hurry, or it will be treated like a traitor class by people for whom the Holodomor is fresh.

Blogger Man of the Atom February 11, 2018 11:32 AM  

Looking Glass wrote:And I've updated my profile name to, hopefully, reflect my "identity". I really wish I could figure out why nothing beyond Google logins will work with their system.

Agreed. But we *do* know the answer to that question already, don't we?

Blogger Koanic February 11, 2018 11:38 AM  

Mohammad didn't look like much when he was laming around in his wife's shadow, but the demon whispering in his ear knew what he was doing. And he sufficed to destroy and darken half Christendom. Don't underestimate the Devil.

Blogger Elwin Ransom February 11, 2018 11:39 AM  

JP self identifies as a Christian. He does squirm around when pressed, I will give you that.

I don’t think he is psychologically weak at all, much the opposite. He took a lot of heat for the public stance he took in Canada on PC and the PC laws they keep trotting out. Some dudes just cry, Dick Vermeil, not psychologically weak.

Most of the media’s game is just to keep the alt-right fractured and infighting.

Blogger Solaire Of Astora February 11, 2018 11:50 AM  

JP doesn't think the bible is 'literally' true but some kind of synthesis and articulation of good values. He has said, in reference to the resurrection, that we don't know what the full extent of living a totally honest life could do to a man, so he might be keeping the extent of his belief secret but from what he has said publicly he isn't a Christian in a spiritual sense.

Blogger Lovekraft February 11, 2018 12:32 PM  

Here's the problem with marxists from Berkeley putting out intellectual arguments that put down an ideology:

they are the ones with a stranglehold on discourse. They are the violent mob that blockades, calls in bomb threats, death threats etc of anyone to the right of their ideology. Thus, they are intellectually dishonest and one has the right to preemptively dismiss them.

That is, until some capitulation and compromise is first reached in terms of redressing the above. IOW, they can't accuse any other group of being less than noble when they themselves are holding the keys with a violent mob backing them.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 11, 2018 12:38 PM  

"WHY they are so desperate to chase people away from every new term that appears?"

To destroy obvious rallying points. Divide and conquer.

"I don’t think he is psychologically weak at all, much the opposite."

If he's on antidepressants, he's psychologically weak, period. It doesn't matter if it's his fault or something congenital, it simply is what it is.


Onto the other topic that seems to be popular in this thread... Paganism isn't coming back in a widespread sense. It's just not going to happen. It's obviously untrue, and it's got nothing going for it except for momentary stopgap bravado that will also melt like a snowflake in hell when things get harsh. Protestations of metalness and masculinity aside, it just doesn't have any power to motivate when the rubber actually meets the road.

The "pagans" don't seem to realize, but better than 99% of them are just another degenerate offshoot of soft modern times, and they aren't nearly as numerous as some here would seemingly like to believe. They'll vanish like vapor in the wind.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 11, 2018 12:43 PM  

"That is, until some capitulation and compromise is first reached in terms of redressing the above."

That'll never happen. If they don't "win" for the time being, the Marxists will either die, run, or vanish themselves into the population and pretend like they never were. They won't compromise, their religion doesn't allow it. Compromise in their lexicon just means "our enemies are weak, push again".

Blogger Elwin Ransom February 11, 2018 12:59 PM  

I’ve consumed a number of JP interviews on his religious beliefs and he is all over the map. It is a weakness of his, he seems very reluctant or at least unsure how to articulate what he really believes.

Literal interpretation of the Bible is a tricky thing, certainly on a spectrum.

I think he’s still working out his faith.

His youtube lectures are great, I’m about 2/3rds the way through his personality series, interesting stuff, hard to figure out what to make of all of it, but it makes you think. The big five personality test has some merit, it helped me make sense of why I am the way I am.

Dude has exploded, I started paying attention to him a few years back, now he is everywhere and I don’t get any sense that it was planned or contrived, it just sort of happened.

Blogger papabear February 11, 2018 1:04 PM  

Jordan Peterson is Canadian. A terminal case of niceness. He did manage to hold his frame with that witch during the interview but he didn't press in for the kill when he could have. Maybe he thinks that would alienate his followers and potential students.

Blogger mostly dead February 11, 2018 1:06 PM  

Peterson is alright in some ways. For one, his Jungian presentation of Christianity seems to be great at shutting down the sort of people who tended to dismiss it as "lacking depth compared to eastern religions" and that sort of crap. He is pretty great at instilling legit respect for Christianity into people who knew it only from either atheist or New Age strawmen of it.

Blogger VD February 11, 2018 1:13 PM  

I don’t think he is psychologically weak at all, much the opposite.

Then why is he on a daily drug-taking regimen? Why does he cry in public? Do you actually have a case or are you simply reacting in ignorance?

Do you not consider people who suffer from depression to be psychologically weaker than those who don't?

Blogger VD February 11, 2018 1:17 PM  

He does squirm around when pressed, I will give you that.

He squirms around and cries. But he's not weak. Right... what is even weaker is your argument.

Look, I like Peterson. I'm delighted that he's doing so well. But I have little doubt that he's going to crack when the hammer drops. Especially when someone who is much tougher, like Milo, couldn't face the heat.

Roosh, Cerno, and Molyneux are the only three who have proven able to withstand it.

Blogger Elwin Ransom February 11, 2018 1:20 PM  

I don’t think it follows at all that antidepressants equal psychologically weak. If you’re diabetic are you psychologically weak? It may be that ADs are much akin to insulin, for some people, a chemical system in your body not working correctly that has to be corrected with medication.

I’m not convinced they work at all, or that they work as intended. I’ve never taken them so it’s hard to really understand what effects they have on one. Then you consider placebo, the blood barrier, who knows what those drugs are doing. Safe to say they are causing side effects, so great caution is merited.

If they do work, does it not follow that they are fixing something that needs fixed?

I’m agnostic on ADs.

Interestingly JP has said many times that real mental health disease is very rare and that most of the time what people have are life problems, lack of a job, friends, sex life, ect. Most distressed folks don’t need drugs, they need to fix the problems in their lives.

Blogger Otto Lamp February 11, 2018 1:31 PM  

"Do you not consider people who suffer from depression to be psychologically weaker than those who don't?"

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/depressions-evolutionary/

Bouts of depression in a hunter-gather human had positive effects. Hence we are wired to occasionally get depressed.

The fact that it's a poor adaptation for modern life doesn't mean depressed people are weak, it just means that evolution has left them poorly adapted for modern circumstances.

Blogger Brad Matthews February 11, 2018 1:32 PM  

He will need help.

Blogger VD February 11, 2018 1:34 PM  

I don’t think it follows at all that antidepressants equal psychologically weak.

Then your opinion clearly doesn't matter.

Blogger Peaceful Poster February 11, 2018 1:38 PM  

Peterson looks physically unwell.

Blogger Elwin Ransom February 11, 2018 1:38 PM  

Cerno has dealt with depression and anxiety.

No, it’s not psychological weakness.

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants February 11, 2018 1:43 PM  

If I take one of the oldest Jordan Peterson video clips online, and compare them to one of the newest, I'd think the man had aged 10 yrs, in just over 2.
Adding to that, I had no idea he was on anti-depressants, but have thought he looked on the edge of cracking for a while now.
He seems to be hanging onto his composure merely by his fingernails, IMO.

OpenID frontiermystic February 11, 2018 1:43 PM  

JP's depression was nuanced. He wasn't having negative ideation, so much as low energy burn out, not surprising considering he overworks himself, doing about 3 full time jobs. In 2012 he was using an anti-depressant, Wellburtin I believe, which is a dopamine booster. Dopamine is the neurotransmitter that makes you motivated to do things, as opposed to Serotonin which most anti-depressants target, and is the molecule that gives you a sense of well being. So it looks like JP's body was trying to keep him from working himself to death.

Gut inflammation seems to have been the key failure point. He figured this out and switched to a strict meat and greens diet, that seems to have cured his gut inflammation and familial depression: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6g_geYeL4U&feature=youtu.be

Last I heard both he and his daughter have been able to go off their meds by cleaning up their diets. Those who suffer a challenge like this and overcome are tough. JP is in a high percentile when it comes to psychological strength.

Blogger Nate February 11, 2018 1:56 PM  

The name doesn't matter. The ideas matter. But keeping the name Alt-Right was a mistake in the sense that it has made things more difficult. It has made it easier for the enemy to marginalize the movement and harder for friendlies to adopt the ideas that appeal to him... because no one wants to be associated with dipshits like Spencer and Anglin.

Cernovich ditched the alt-right thing from the begining... and he was wise to do so.

Blogger Nate February 11, 2018 2:00 PM  

" Especially when someone who is much tougher, like Milo, couldn't face the heat."

why do you say Milo is tougher? Milo and Jordan both appear to be people who crave positive attention.

Perhaps the reason Cerno and Roosh and you can take the hits is that the positive attention doesn't mean anything to you. That's not what you're about. Stefan is a different sort of bird entirely of course.

Blogger The Cooler February 11, 2018 2:10 PM  

Depression is by definition a psychological weakness/inferiority/deviation from the mean. Were it not, it would be desirable to be depressed non-stop and as far down in the doldrums as one could possibly go. Unless one wants to argue that their is an 'optimal' level of depression...

Said differently, we're not going to see Big Pharma spending millions developing new Pro-Depressants.

Whether or not gifted people would be as equally gifted absent their depressive episodes is the substantive debate.

Such wellborns exist, but are few and far between and generally only they know it. Which can be depressing.

Blogger Koanic February 11, 2018 2:11 PM  

> why do you say Milo is tougher?

Milo is an MT like me. If I were a gay Jew with a black husband, I'd be societally acceptable and nicer too. Don't be distracted by the theatrics; we both admire the Borg.

Blogger VD February 11, 2018 2:15 PM  

why do you say Milo is tougher? Milo and Jordan both appear to be people who crave positive attention.

Because Milo dealt with the kind of pressure that Peterson has faced ONCE without any trouble at all or being remotely upset at all. He was on UK television all the time, smacked them down much like Peterson did, and without any subsequent hand-wringing.

Milo's problem was that he was always so adroit that no one ever landed a punch directly on him. So, when a concerted effort finally did so, he needed to go away and lick his wounds for a while. That was 25x more pressure than Peterson has ever seen. I doubt he would handle it as well as Milo did, and Milo did not handle it anywhere nearly as well as Roosh did.

Mike and I have both been literally punched in the face many times, and we have both been through major public embarrassment in our personal lives. As has Stefan. None of us give a damn at this point; it's also part of why we don't crave attention.

Blogger Danby February 11, 2018 2:22 PM  

tz wrote:That their deaths can glorify them. And that if they give in to temptation or violate the Koran that they will be condemned to hell.
Muslims are Universalists. They don't believe in hell.

Blogger DonReynolds February 11, 2018 2:50 PM  

The question just goes begging, but given the hatred and spite and contempt this fake Christian has for any sort of white identity, does he also give even time with his poison pen to attack BlackLivesMatter, and New Black Panther Party, and Nation of Islam....all of which are even more openly advocate for Negro Supremacy and Black Privilege and Afrikan Superiority and Black Nationalism.

Does he have anything to say about LaRaza or MECha or any of the other Mexican race and nationalist organizations? Of course not.

I suspect, he saves all his energy for white identity movements ONLY. So the truth is....he is not bothered by racism, unless it is pro-white....which is pretty rare actually. If he were bothered by sexism or homophobia, he would spend most of his time attacking Muslims. Of course, he does not, because it is not considered virtue signaling, unless he attacks whites.

Blogger peppermint88 February 11, 2018 3:26 PM  

Christianity is at least so essential that every movement of the past millennium has included a criticism of the Christianity of the past and of its opponents. Marxism is more aggressively atheistic than the Alt-Right, and Christian socialism is far from fringe.

Bible worship today was a response to transcendentalism and unitarianism, but initially was anti-traditionalist, which is why the alt-right calling itself traditionalist emphasizes extra-Biblical aspects like respect for family practical celebration of Christmas. "Know them by their fruits" is the Alt-Right slogan against the personal spiritual journey idea of Christianity.

GEOTUS respects women more than Bill Clinton, depending on whether respect for women necessarily implies respect for marriage.

Blogger Danby February 11, 2018 3:40 PM  

Nate wrote:But keeping the name Alt-Right was a mistake in the sense that it has made things more difficult. It has made it easier for the enemy to marginalize the movement and harder for friendlies to adopt the ideas that appeal to him... because no one wants to be associated with dipshits like Spencer and Anglin.
What makes you think that if a new name were adopted, there would not be3 new dipshits, or even the old dipshits like Spencer and Anglin, adopting it, specifically to discredit it?
That's what happens when you let the opposition determine your next move. We're taking the name away from them.

No Surrender.

Blogger Miguel February 11, 2018 4:11 PM  

Jordan cracked when asked about the (((JQ))).

Blogger Otto Lamp February 11, 2018 4:21 PM  

"Depression is by definition a psychological weakness/inferiority/deviation from the mean."

What do you call someone that NEVER gets depressed? Abnormal.

Staying depressed for extended periods of time is a different story.

Blogger VD February 11, 2018 4:37 PM  

But keeping the name Alt-Right was a mistake in the sense that it has made things more difficult. It has made it easier for the enemy to marginalize the movement and harder for friendlies to adopt the ideas that appeal to him... because no one wants to be associated with dipshits like Spencer and Anglin.

As I have pointed out to you guys from the start, you have it entirely backwards. You are permitting the enemy to marginalize the ideas by retreating from the label because the dipshits will associate themselves with everything that looks even potentially successful. Did you not notice that David Duke not only latched onto it, but was promptly hailed as a leader by the media? Did you not notice that Anglin had nothing to do with the Alt Right until the Hillary speech?

And do you not understand why the Churchians and cucks are attacking it NOW? It is still being attacked because the mainstream's guilt-by-association campaign has failed. No one takes Anglin or Spencer seriously, no one accepts them as leaders, and people continue to move philosophically Alt Right everywhere from Sweden to south Florida.

Retreating from a media-tainted label is as counterproductive as bursting out crying because a mean girl called you a name. All it does is provide them with a blueprint on how to beat you next time.

Cernovich ditched the alt-right thing from the begining... and he was wise to do so.

It all depends what your goals are. The fact that the media does not attack the "New Right" is evidence of its irrelevance.

Blogger tz February 11, 2018 4:42 PM  

@88
AMEN!

Blogger The Cooler February 11, 2018 4:45 PM  

What do you call someone that NEVER gets depressed? Abnormal.

Abnormality is not necessarily a psychological weakness, inferiority, or, net positive or negative as a deviation from the mean.

Blogger tz February 11, 2018 4:46 PM  

@81 They went nuclear on Milo, but he emerged, like some monster in a Godzilla movie, even stronger.

There is intellectual disagreement, but it is a secondary thing.

Holding fast in the hurricane shows the "Content of your Character", and Milo is a living Martyr. He has come through the fire refined, if not pure by some standards.

Blogger tublecane February 11, 2018 5:26 PM  

Most people are trapped in the Thought Prison, one tenet of which holds that fascism is of the right. I've read Greg Johnson and even bought some Counter-currents books, but it became apparent to me after like half a second on that site that it wasn't really of the right.

It would be more accurate to think of them as alt-left, of that term weren't already assigned. Because they're leftists, but stand well outside the mainstream. Which gives them an interesting outsider's perspective, with many pointed criticisms of the left. But they're leftists nonetheless.

However, they do promote and follow a few actual rightists or just plain good thinkers, like Mencken, Stoddard, Lovecraft, Faye, and I enjoy Jonathan Bowden.* They're simply not on our side overall.

It's obvious why the MSM promotes people like this. First of all because they're obvious nonstarters. Secondly, because they're within the range of acceptable opinion, being the leftists they are. Sorta like with libertarians, if they took them seriously it would mean the collapse of Consensus Liberalism, buuut, so far as dangerous ideas go it's the mainstream's kind of dangerous idea. If you know what I mean.

Which is why libertarianism gets mainstream exposure. They allow sitcom characters to libertarians, for Pete's sake. Fascists don't usually get to be sympathetic, unless it's the one concentration camp commandant who has a sensitive soul and listens to Mozart, or whatever. But they do get to be heard. They are Official bad guys.

*If it weren't for the anti-racist disease infecting our culture, Stoddard and Lovecraft, for instance, could probably be considered Good Progressives. They certainly had progressive qualities. It's rather arbitrary how some racist progressives get off scott free, and others have been unpersoned.

Although, I suppose I'm just as arbitrary about whom I consider one of my kind, or merely a person I admire, from the past.

Blogger Nate February 11, 2018 5:47 PM  

"Retreating from a media-tainted label is as counterproductive as bursting out crying because a mean girl called you a name. All it does is provide them with a blueprint on how to beat you next time."

oh come on its not even the same thing. First of all... we didn't abandon the name. You certainly didn't and we've never shrunk from it here. MOTW uses hard right but a quick search will show several times where "alt-right" is also used on the site.

No one is shrinking from anything.


Blogger Lovekraft February 11, 2018 5:51 PM  

He hasn't been mentioned here before, so I thought I'd put a plug in for youtuber 'HardBastard.' No nonsense reporting with a fresh and blunt frankness.

Here's him analyzing Tareeq Nasheed debating Jared Taylor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRj6pkI_1zQ

Blogger tublecane February 11, 2018 6:01 PM  

@69-Diabetes is not a psychological illness, though it can be an indicator of one.

A better comparison would be to ask: "if you're diabetic are you metabolically weak?"

To ask is to answer. "Duh."

Blogger tublecane February 11, 2018 6:05 PM  

@70-Whence this notion that poor adaptation for certain circumstances doesn't constitute weakness in those circumstances? (Assuming the type of depression that supposedly helped hunter-gatherers is the same thing we call depression right now.)

Fish are poorly adapted for life on dry land. Are you going to tell me they aren't weak out of water?

Blogger peppermint88 February 11, 2018 6:26 PM  

An Alt-Right pagan revival is almost an oxymoron. What is the difference between pagan and Christian restoration of marriage other than the brief moment where pagan has the groom's father officiating to accept the bride into his family? What is a pagan funeral? How do pagans celebrate Yuletide or Satunalia or Eostre or, well, anything? How strict are pagan usury laws, for what crimes and how do pagans impose the death penalty? What virtues does the pagan monarch aspire to, when is a pagan war just? The answer isn't each European people has its own answer, because while Greeks have been Christian for the longest, their paganism has the most extensive records.

An Alt- Right Christian revival, if possible, if forced to name itself would probably choose practical Christianity, rejecting the reductionistic anti-particularism that gives busy men no reason to choose any church or church at all, and the glorification of extra-marital sex found in virtually all 20c literature, including, inexcusably, supposedly reactionary literature, or non-reactionary Christian literature.

Blogger Elwin Ransom February 11, 2018 6:35 PM  

Tublecane,
You’re playing word games or at least thinking about it differently than I am (and a bit outside of the context of the original comment).

Psychologically weak means dealing with stress, pressure, and negative emotion poorly and getting depression as a result, or at least that’s how I was thinking about it. I don’t think that’s a given or proven. What is seasonal depression, psychological weakness? What about people who have great lives and normal stress levels but sometimes get depressed anyway, that certainly doesn’t fit well with psychological weakness.

If you simply mean being prone to depression is a weakness, disadvantageous, then ya, sure enough, I agree with that.

Blogger Danby February 11, 2018 7:00 PM  

Depression isn't a result of weakness. Depression is itself a weakness.
You're being mightily obtuse

Blogger Ingot9455 February 11, 2018 7:00 PM  

@73 @75 Jordan Peterson has mentioned that he and his daughter have an autoimmune disorder and that they (barely) control it with a rigid diet. He looks unwell because he is, sadly, unwell.

Blogger Elwin Ransom February 11, 2018 7:33 PM  

Ingot,

Unless I missed something only the daughter has the auto immune, she also has depression and claims that her diet is controlling both, I think she has gotten off of ADs.

Her dad does the diet with her and has lost a bunch of weight, I’m not sure if he still takes ADs.

I have family with RA and they do almost the same diet, honestly, I’m not sure it’s even possible to stay fat if you adopt that strict diet, the weight just falls off over the first year.

Lots of talk and research out there that diet may be way more important than we think for things like auto immune and mood disorders. I’ve read the Wahl’s protocol, which is a version of the diet, very hardcore, hard to keep up unless you have major motivation, like MS or depression.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 11, 2018 7:40 PM  

"Tublecane,
You’re playing word games or at least thinking about it differently than I am"


He's not playing word games. You've been trying to play word games practically the entire discussion.

Whether or not depression was once a useful trait, it is in and of itself CURRENTLY a maladaption, and thus a weakness.

Blogger phunktor February 11, 2018 7:58 PM  

"it could happen"

Paging Eric Bluetooth! Eric Bluetooth to the white courtesy phone, please!

Blogger VD February 11, 2018 9:07 PM  

What is a pagan funeral?

Rape the slave girl, sacrifice her, then push out the boat and set it on fire.

Blogger Jack Burroughs February 11, 2018 10:07 PM  

JB: "You don't really get to say what someone else identifies with, or whether they can covert to paganism."

VD: "And yet, you are trying to do precisely that with regards to Christians, as well as setting yourself up as the arbiter of the sincerity of their beliefs."

Not at all. I'm not suggesting that one cannot convert sincerely to Christianity, or that existing Christians cannot be deeply faithful, or that there cannot be a Christian rennaissance. These are all real possibilities, in principle.

I was just describing the current state of the nominally Christian world, as I see it. I don't see any of those things happening in a widespread way today, in *practice*.

By contrast, Mr.MantraMan, whom I was answering, had argued that conversions to paganism are basically impossible *in principle*: "For lack of a better term I've been a norse pagan since my youth, you are or you are not, no conversions, if a person is the typical lost puppy person then they need dream catchers, crystals or drugs, or better yet a conversion to Christianity."

VD: "You should know better than to try to play a double game here, of all places."

I wasn't playing a double game; my standard was consistent: no one is in any position to dismiss the possibility, in principle, of conversion to paganism *or* to Christianity. But it is fair to judge the sincerity and depth of any given conversion, or of any widespread religious resurgence, in *practice*.

I was only making a judgement about contemporary Christianity in practice, not in principle.
But, to be fair, I probably should have been clearer about this.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine February 11, 2018 11:59 PM  

"I wasn't playing a double game; my standard was consistent: no one is in any position to dismiss the possibility, in principle, of conversion to paganism *or* to Christianity. But it is fair to judge the sincerity and depth of any given conversion, or of any widespread religious resurgence, in *practice*."

If the real practice isn't there, the "conversion" is fraudulent. You were trying to use a double standard, and you still are. If it's fair to judge the sincerity of a Christian conversion via the later practice, it's fair to judge the sincerity of a pagan one by the later practice as well, period.

If it is impossible (or nearly impossible) to sincerely convert to paganism, it is perfectly fair to say that it is impossible (or nearly impossible) to convert period. If it's not sincere it's not actually a conversion.

Blogger Jack Burroughs February 12, 2018 1:02 AM  

"If the real practice isn't there, the "conversion" is fraudulent."

This premise is precisely what I am disputing. By what authority do you, or does anyone else, declare that the "real" practice of paganism "isn't there"?

"You were trying to use a double standard, and you still are."

Again, my standard was perfectly consistent: I'm saying that no one is any position to deny the possibility, in principle, of a genuine pagan *or* Christian conversion.

Assuming you agree with Vox that a genuine conversion to Christianity is possible, then you are the one with the double standard--because you are saying that a genuine conversion to Christianity is possible, but a conversion to paganism is basically impossible.

But this is a completely different issue from judging the sincerity and seriousness of any particular so-called conversion in practice.

"If it's fair to judge the sincerity of a Christian conversion via the later practice, it's fair to judge the sincerity of a pagan one by the later practice as well, period."

I completely agree with this statement, and have said so. Nothing I have said in this thread contradicts it. I have only disputed that you and others here are in any position to authoritatively declare that there are no viable contemporary pagan practices. But if you want to judge whether someone is participating in pagan practices in a serious or unserious way, that's fine with me.

"If it is impossible (or nearly impossible) to sincerely convert to paganism, it is perfectly fair to say that it is impossible (or nearly impossible) to convert period. If it's not sincere it's not actually a conversion."

This syllogism rests on the false premise that it is impossible, or nearly impossible, to convert to paganism. That is what I have been disputing--this false premise.

And even if I were wrong, and the disputed premise turned out to be true, I *still* would not have used a double standard anywhere in my argument.

My standard would be logically consistent even if it were false.

Having said that, my standard is true. No one is in any position to declare that it is impossible to sincerely convert to paganism.

Blogger Erick Parker February 12, 2018 1:59 AM  

Paganism is false, so it can't substitute. At best you can LARP. Christians belive "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again". Does even one Pagan really belive Odin, Thor, etc. really exist, and that they give spiritual power and victory?

Christianity and Islam are the only religions where the worshipers worry much about whether the deities literally exist as pictured. Shinto has gotten along just fine with minimal theology, Hinduism has about a dozen schools of thought with only a few worried about how many arms vishnu "really" has, and Buddhism is all about metaphors/illusions/whatever. It's a daunting challenge to switch perspectives, and one the 18th century romantics and nationalists could not surpass, but the west just might be in a good position today to change it. The only real obstacle to the mass adoption of pagan deities (most prominently Asatru) is the switching of perspectives, so easy for everyone else but difficult for the Abrahamic world.

Blogger Erick Parker February 12, 2018 2:02 AM  

@VD

"What is a pagan funeral?

Rape the slave girl, sacrifice her, then push out the boat and set it on fire."

Times have changed for everyone (any witch burnings lately?). Now, I will admit I've only been practicing Asatru for a few years, but I have yet to see a rape or human sacrifice, or hear anyone wanting one. :)

Blogger Koanic February 12, 2018 2:33 AM  

> As I have pointed out to you guys from the start, you have it entirely backwards.

Agreed. No one fears that the Men of Gondor will start stringing up (((journalists))).

> Paganism is false, so it can't substitute.

The vast majority of militaries have been backed by false religions. Semi-pagan Nazi Germany and Shinto Japan fought well enough last time, but were beaten by Judeo-Communism and Harvard post-Christianism. Truth's got nothing to do with it.

> any witch burnings lately?

Patience.

Blogger Erick Parker February 12, 2018 5:01 AM  

Koanic: "> any witch burnings lately?

Patience."

I...I can't tell if you're advocating witch burnings, or paganism, or Christianity. I hope one of the latter two.

Blogger Nathan February 12, 2018 5:35 AM  

Vox #38: "Nation and identity are subsets of race. Race is only irrelevant because it is too large a category."

Is that the only reason race is irrelevant? Isn't another reason it is irrelevant -- and nationality inevitably takes the main stage (like the First Things piece points out) -- is that the amount of genetic similarity between mixed race couples and their progeny exceeds that of any given people that belong to the same race?

And speaking of race Vox, in a previous post, I asked this: "Must attributes or properties be 'essential' in order to be of significance? I am not sure how saying that a property is accidental necessarily translates to being of no importance for us in the real world."

I also said the following there, and I'm curious to know why what I say is wrong:

I do tend to think that it makes sense to see humanity as one, with race still being something significant. We can certainly justify language like collie, poodle, bulldog, huskie, St. Bernard, etc., even as they are all just really variations of wolves...

As I said to you some time ago isn't the best way to determine another human being basically phenotypically? I mean, there is a world of difference between anyone in the human family and someone who is in the ape families. I know we might make jokes about this or that person looking like a monkey or a neanderthal but it seems there is still a huge gulf there. I'm not going to be physically attracted to anyone who is an ape for example - nor could one successfully breed with them if one wanted to! (yuck) - but I will beautiful persons of other "racial" backgrounds.

Blogger Nathan February 12, 2018 5:39 AM  

Vox,

Actually, when I said "is that the amount of genetic similarity between mixed race couples and their progeny exceeds that of any given people that belong to the same race?" it occurred to me that even if this is not the case, the children of any mixed race couple are going to all be more genetically similar with one another than any given persons of this or that "race". The fact that phenotypically we can characterize persons as this or that race is significant of course, and yet, this whole point about genetic similarity holds true which again makes me think that nationality is the more significant category for other reasons as well...

Blogger Koanic February 12, 2018 6:21 AM  

> the amount of genetic similarity between mixed race couples and their progeny exceeds that of any given people that belong to the same race?

You have no clue about genetic distance.

Blogger Nathan February 12, 2018 6:40 AM  

#112 Koanic

Well, are you able to explain in a simple way where I go wrong here? Am I wrong to think that all of the progeny of a mixed race couple will be closer genetically than this or that randomly chosen person from a given race? And here, I think, is a corollary thought: while we have probably pushed the limits when it comes to dog breeds -- seeing about all the variety that is possible -- is this yet the case with human beings?

Blogger Nathan February 12, 2018 6:41 AM  

sorry:

"will be closer genetically than this or that randomly chosen personS from a given race?"

Blogger Koanic February 12, 2018 7:05 AM  

> Well, are you able to explain in a simple way where I go wrong here?

Yes, opening your mouth instead of a Google tab.

OpenID poseidonawoke February 12, 2018 9:16 AM  

What books or sites exist that have the best strategies for either un-pozzing a Church or for keeping a Church un-pozzed?

Blogger Nathan February 12, 2018 10:06 AM  

#118 Koanic: I'm more than happy to open a Google tab. Keyword suggestions? Thanks.

Blogger tublecane February 12, 2018 5:27 PM  

@111-Nazi Germany was semi-Pagan in your imagination. That was an overwhelmingly Christian country.

Himmler dabbling in the occult is irrelevant. We have plenty (too many) occultists in our country, but no one disputes the U.S. is more Christian than not.

Blogger tublecane February 12, 2018 5:32 PM  

@113-Congratulations, you've Noticed men differ from other apes.

Be careful, however. What if generations from now, when chimps and gorillas have (theoretical) full and equal participation in human society, your descendants discover your disgusting anti-gorillic writings. Imagine, someone denying ape equality! All apes are one, they'll say.

Blogger mostly dead February 13, 2018 5:14 AM  

@121
What the vast majority of common populace thought they believed was of no relevance. Sheep will go where they are led... Their leadership was either atheist or Pagan, and even those thought leaders who were seemingly pro-Christian were actually gravitating towards Gnosticism or Christo-Paganism (see Alfred Rosenberg).

Blogger Daniel February 13, 2018 9:58 PM  

roosh retreated and only kept the blog and rok

Blogger Daniel February 13, 2018 10:09 PM  

you'd be surprised of how many people in argentina are in the same move. the term alt rigth is unknown though and we do not have any label

Blogger Koanic February 17, 2018 8:02 AM  

> [Germany] was an overwhelmingly Christian country.

It certainly didn't overwhelm their political leadership.

> but no one disputes the U.S. is more Christian than not.

I do. "Christian" is a meaningless pagan Gentile term. The USA is not more Church than not. And what's there, ain't salty.

> Keyword suggestions?

Genetic distance race

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