ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2017 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Thursday, November 09, 2017

Derb on the 16 Points

While I like and respect John Derbyshire, and bow to his demonstrated expertise in mathematics, he should probably resist the temptation to express any strong opinions on economics and political economy, as evidenced by his recent speech on the Alt-Right. In any event, here is my response to it.
Point 1: I don’t know what a Marxian is. Typo for “Martian”?
Ha very ha. Anyhow, "Marxian" distinguishes those who accept elements of, and are heavily influenced by, various aspects of Karl Marx's theories of history and political economy from those who accept and advocate Karl Marx's political ideologies and policies. The former is a Marxian, the latter is a Marxist. I studied under a reasonably well-known Marxian, Robert Chernomas, which is why I am very well schooled in the substantive material differences between the two.

But you need not take my word for it.

Marxian economics refers to several different theories and includes multiple schools of thought which are sometimes opposed to each other, and in many cases Marxian analysis is used to complement or supplement other economic approaches. Because one does not necessarily have to be politically Marxist to be economically Marxian, the two adjectives coexist in usage rather than being synonymous. They share a semantic field while also allowing connotative and denotative differences.
- Marxian Economics, Infogalactic

Sadly, Prof. Chernomas did not make Wikipedia's list of Marxian Economists. The point is, this is not one of my neologisms nor is it an even remotely esoteric concept.
Point 3: Let’s not get ideas above our station here. Aristotle had a philosophy. Descartes had a philosophy. Kant had a philosophy. What the Alt Right has is an attitude.
Fair enough, although it is rather more than that. At least in the form described by the 16 points, the Alt-Right has a political philosophy that is more specific and coherent than anything currently on offer from conservatives, liberals, progressives, globalists, or the Fake Right. If we are merely an "attitude", then how does one describe those things to which we are an alternative?
Point 4: I think the Jews should have gotten a mention there, since half of the Christian Bible is about them.
Absolutely not. The Jews are not part of Western civilization. They pre-date it, they are of the East, and a significant portion of their cultural tradition is pre-civilized. The fact that the primary architects of the present effort to destroy Western civilization, particularly its pillars of Christianity and the European nations, are Jewish suffice to make it very clear that, while some Jews may be in the West, they are not of the West. Judaism is a conscious rejection of Christianity, and therefore, of the West.
Point 6: When the slave traders arrive from Alpha Centauri, or an asteroid hits, or a supervolcano pops, we shall all become globalists overnight.
No, we won't. Reality is not Star Trek. The entire written history of Man indicates that should slave traders arrive from Alpha Centauri, the various human elites will hasten to make deals with them to set up satrapies over which they will rule to provide them with the slaves they seek. See: the history of the slave trade in Africa.
Point 8: It’s what? The word “scientody” is not known to dictionary.com; nor is it in my 1971 OED with supplement; nor in my 1993 Webster’s.

I tried digging for etymologies, but got lost in a thicket of possibilities. Greek hodos, a path or way; so “the way of science”? Or perhaps eidos, a shape or form, giving us the “-oid” suffix (spheroid, rheumatoid); so “science-like”? Then there’s aoide, a song, giving … what? “Harmonizes like science”? Or maybe it’s the Latin root odor, a smell; “smells like science.”

In any case, all three of the “understandings” here are gibberish.

a) There is a large body of solidly-established scientific results that are not liable to future revision.

Saturn is further from the Sun at any point of its orbit than Jupiter is at any point of its. A water molecule has two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Natural selection plays an important role in the evolution of life.

I promise Vox Day there will be no future revisions of these facts, at any rate not on any time span he or I need worry about. (I add that qualification because there are conceivable astronomical events that could alter the sequence of planetary orbits—a very close encounter with a rogue star, for example. Those are once-in-a-billion-year occurrences, though.)

b) “Scientistry”? Wha?

c) The scientific consensus is unscientific? Huh? And why is the consensus “so-called”? There usually—not always, but usually—is a scientific consensus. It occasionally turns out to have been wrong, but it’s a consensus none the less, not a “so-called” consensus.
To simply call everything "science" is to be misleading, often intentionally. Science has no intrinsic authority, it is less reliable than engineering, and increasingly, references to it are a deceitful bait-and-switch, in which the overly credulous are led to believe that because an individual with certain credentials is asserting something, that statement is supported by documentary evidence gathered through the scientific method of hypothesis, experiment, and successful replication.

In most - not many, but most - cases, that is simply not true. Even if you don't use these three neologisms to describe the three aspects of science, you must learn to distinguish between them or you will repeatedly fall for this intentional bait-and-switch. In order of reliability, the three aspects of science are:

Scientody: the process
Scientage: the knowledge base
Scientistry: the profession

The scientific consensus is is "so-called" because while it may be a consensus, it is intrinsically unscientific. This is obvious, observable, and undeniable. Taking a vote of the current opinions of scientists is no more scientody than is collecting their cumulative bodily evacuations for hygienic disposal. The expressed opinions that make up the consensus may be based on anything from a personal use of the scientific process to a) desire to obtain grant money, b) political ideology, c) identity, d) mental illness, e) sexual desire, f) personal ambition, or g) anything else capable of influencing one's opinion.
Point 13: I’m an economic ignoramus, but I’d like to see a good logical proof of the proposition that free trade requires free movement of peoples. I am sincerely open to being enlightened on this point.
Free trade, by definition, concerns unrestricted exchanges between two private parties. These exchanges may involve goods, capital, services, and labor. In order to freely provide services or labor, the providing party must be able to travel to the location of the receiving party in order to fulfill his end of the exchange. Therefore, free trade requires the free movement of peoples.

As a bonus proof, I will point out that in order to achieve the maximum efficiencies theoretically provided by the free market, both labor and capital must be able to travel to the most efficient production sites. Any failure to restrict this travel will necessarily create inefficiencies and therefore prevent the economy from reaching its maximum growth potential.
Point 14. I doubt there is an existential threat to white people. 
Derb has more than enough math to work out the amount of cross-breeding required to render the entire population of the Earth insufficiently white to reproduce itself. The threat is not yet dire, but if the present trends proceed in a linear fashion, they will become dire within our children's lifetimes.
Point 15: That’s a bit kumbaya-ish (or “-oid”). No doubt the Bushmen of the Kalahari are much better at hunting with spears than are Norwegians or Japanese. As Greg Cochran points out, though: “innate superiority at obsolete tasks (a born buggy-whip maker?) doesn’t necessarily translate to modern superiority, or even adequacy.”
Superiority at an obsolete task, or at a task presently disvalued by modern liberal society, does not mean that it does not exist. Given the rate at which the Western world is descending into plumbing-free barbarism, hunting with spears may well prove to be a more important skill in the near future than the ability to solve advanced mathematical problems.

As for the other points, I do not object to the various nits being picked, as in most cases I tend to agree with them. I do not claim to have always planted my flag in the optimal place in the gradient between precision and brevity. As to the original question being posed, I consider Derb to be an honored elder who well merits a place of respect in the Alternative Right on the basis of his fearless iconoclasm and the personal sacrifices he has made in the interest of telling the truth.

Labels: ,

150 Comments:

Blogger Solaire Of Astora November 09, 2017 11:20 AM  

He should probably not comment on the bible either, as he's biblically illiterate. The Old Testament is about the Israelites of which Jews are only a subset. This isn't even complicated stuff, it's basic.

Blogger rcocean November 09, 2017 11:22 AM  

Good you like Derb, I'm much less enthusiastic. He never said a word about the Right-wing purge at NR, until he got bounced. Further, he has an annoying aspbergy vibe combined with the equally annoying English "What me worry?" attitude.

Blogger Nate November 09, 2017 11:29 AM  

Derb should be considered alt-right based on his response to the 16 points. Particularly the response to number 7.

Blogger Ingot9455 November 09, 2017 11:31 AM  

President Reagan famously begun the Reykjavik summit by asking Gorbachev, "If aliens came down from outer space to kill us all, do you think we could work together?"

And Gorbachev didn't answer.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener November 09, 2017 11:33 AM  

Given the extent to which appeals to science have been used to deceive, a distinction between the various aspects of science is important. I do prefer using the terms scientific method, scientific body of knowledge, and scientific profession for clarity, even if their repeated use gets a bit tedious.

Anonymous Stephen J. November 09, 2017 11:35 AM  

With full acknowledgement that this is a rather spergy question, I was interested in the distinction made between "Marxian" and "Marxist": "Marxian" distinguishes those who accept elements of, and are heavily influenced by, various aspects of Karl Marx's theories of history and political economy from those who accept and advocate Karl Marx's political ideologies and policies. The former is a Marxian, the latter is a Marxist.

The repetition of the word "political" is probably what's confusing me, but in practice, what's the difference between the acceptance of a theory of political economy and the advocacy of a political ideology, since it seems to me you can't really do the latter without first establishing the former? Or, to phrase it another way, what would a Marxist say and do that a Marxian wouldn't, and vice versa?

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 09, 2017 11:39 AM  

#4 that could probably be put to the SJW as well

Blogger VD November 09, 2017 11:41 AM  

Or, to phrase it another way, what would a Marxist say and do that a Marxian wouldn't, and vice versa?

Marxian: Labor is the ultimate source of value.
Marxist: The State must seize the means of production!

Blogger VD November 09, 2017 11:45 AM  

Marxist: Free education for all children in government schools.
Marxian: I homeschool my kids to avoid capitalist and/or religious indoctrination.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener November 09, 2017 11:45 AM  

Anyhow, "Marxian" distinguishes those who accept elements of, and are heavily influenced by, various aspects of Karl Marx's theories of history and political economy from those who accept and advocate Karl Marx's political ideologies and policies. The former is a Marxian, the latter is a Marxist.

This is timely. A couple of weeks ago I was reading about the differences between the two terms but I didn't find anything as clear and concise as this.

Blogger wreckage November 09, 2017 11:49 AM  

So marxian = Labour theory of value?
Generally considered a fundamental error leading to GIGO problems with the model, as opposed to marxism, which just outright kills people in vast numbers.

Anonymous fop November 09, 2017 11:50 AM  

To simply call everything "science" is to be misleading, often intentionally.

I can find no fault in this. I can also not fault Derb for brutally mocking point 8.

Anonymous kfg November 09, 2017 11:50 AM  

". . . a significant portion of their cultural tradition is pre-civilized."

The story of Cain and Abel is a conflict between farmers and pastoralists. It is the last stages of pre-civilization, lacking only literature to be a formal civilization.

By the time we get to Israel, he migrates into a high civilization with a literature a couple thousand years old. Moses is born in the Iron Age, in the heart of the greatest high civilization on Earth.

According to the archeologists, the Jewish tribes were formed out of a local civilizational collapse, rebuilding from the ashes. They were surrounded on all sides by high civilization.

Canaan was something like the Detroit of the Middle East.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer November 09, 2017 11:52 AM  

Derbyshire has been buying into the whole "brain science proves we don't have free will and consciousness is an illusion" thing. In which case, I don't know why you would care about anything anyway. That said I think he and the zman are both pretty smart, but their atheism and science, I won't call it worship, but devotion, can create some blind spots.

In regards to alien slavers, Torchwood did a story line on that. Aliens show up and demand 10% of the Earth's children, we choose which 10%. The rich and powerful immediately start plotting how to make sure its the children of the poor and weak that are to be sacrificed. Also, the aliens know that we will provide the kids because we had provided a much smaller number of kids a few decades ago.

Anonymous Looking Glass November 09, 2017 11:52 AM  

@2 rcocean

Derb is from the old British Right, so he really is from a different world, but he took the 16 Points a lot more seriously than most of the standard Right has. Which is important.


@3 Nate

Derb never quite fit the Tweed & Losing branch well, but he sounds British so they liked him. Then he made the mistake of writing about population distributions.

Anonymous Faceless November 09, 2017 11:55 AM  

@13

I think you would more aptly call it the San Francisco of the Middle East - great location, terrible people - Lake Erie doesn't have a lot of charm.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer November 09, 2017 11:55 AM  

#15

Derb made the mistake of publicly stating what any working class kid could have told you.

Blogger VD November 09, 2017 11:57 AM  

I can also not fault Derb for brutally mocking point 8.

You should. That was worse than his brutally mocking the concept of "Marxian". And at least he admitted that he doesn't know anything about economics.

Anonymous Some antics November 09, 2017 11:58 AM  

"Marxist: The State must seize the means of production!"

Blek! "seize" just a euphemism for stealing or armed robbery.

Blogger Ceasar November 09, 2017 11:58 AM  

The event at the Mencken Club provided speeches from Derbershire, Gottfried and Preston. From reading Zman’s description of their speeches, it is apparent that none of them were there to promote the positive contributions the Alt-Right has had in moving national politics in the last year or so.

I find that when someone who declares they are NOT part of Alt-Right, but then takes on the effort to define or explain the Alt-Right, they are most likely part of the far left, Never-Trumpers or GOPe. There are exceptions but few.

If you respond to these people’s assertions about the Alt-Right, you are “negotiating” with them. They will never agree with you and at best they round their criticism but the main point remains with the added bonus of claiming even Alt-Right members have acknowledged/discussed the internal group conflicts.

Far Left, Never-Trumpers, GOPe are all liars. Don’t negotiate with liars.

Blogger S1AL November 09, 2017 12:00 PM  

@wreckage - In a more general sense, a Marxian is someone who accepts the premises of Marx; a Marxist is someone who accepts his proposed solutions.

Blogger FSL November 09, 2017 12:00 PM  

Regarding Point 13, Vox, this has also occurred to me as an oddity that I never have quite understood, even while I was reading your book *Cuckservative*. Why, for example, cannot an American ship travel to China, Chinese workmen load it with goods and American money go to China while the ship returns to America with the goods without free movement of labour? That doesn't seem to necessitate open borders or free movement of workers. Neither does the explanation or purported proof given above. I agree free trade is a bad idea, but I am not convinced by what you've written above (yet?) that it intrinsically necessitates free movement of labour. Perhaps typing more slowly is called for, but you just have not made your point convincingly here it seems.

Anonymous Looking Glass November 09, 2017 12:00 PM  

@9 VD

Marx's views could be split up into aspects of Religion/Sociology, Economics and Government Structure. To this taxonomy, a "Marxist" would be the full slate encompassing all aspects and we can really pick out the Reds and know what they do. However, the Economic & Government Structures have all categorically failed, which is why we don't see new Communist countries popping up.

A Marxian would be an ideological/religious descendant of the theories, but merged with other in-cultural assumptions so they are are least functionally able to operate within society.

I.e. they live in San Fran and like to virtue signal all over the place.

That about right?

Anonymous Wilbur Hassenfus November 09, 2017 12:00 PM  

When the slave traders arrive, Derb will become a globalist; the man who sells Derb to the traders will not.

Sad to see, but Derb has the cuckservative’s faith that in just the right circumstances, all the world will suddenly fall to their knees like Saul and reveal that all along, they were secret cuckservative kings too.

Until then, real cuckservativism just hasn’t been tried.


Blogger S1AL November 09, 2017 12:04 PM  

@FSL - I suspect you're making the same mistake I did at first: failing to distinguish between Free Trade (Platonic) and 'free trade' (vernacular).

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer November 09, 2017 12:05 PM  

I.e. they live in San Fran and like to virtue signal all over the place.

I remember reading something a few years ago about some San Francisco apartment dwellers debating the ethics of owner real property. That is, should they stop being renters and buy a house. The consensus was that owning real property was inherently wrong.

Blogger Nate November 09, 2017 12:08 PM  

"You should. That was worse than his brutally mocking the concept of "Marxian". And at least he admitted that he doesn't know anything about economics."

It was cringe. He was looking for cheap laugh lines. He would've been better served to simply email and ask "what do you mean by these words?" It wouldn't have given him any laughs but it would have given him something interesting to talk about.

Anonymous Looking Glass November 09, 2017 12:08 PM  

@26 Ron Winkleheimer

How very right-wing of views they held!

Anonymous Stephen J. November 09, 2017 12:10 PM  

Marxian: Labor is the ultimate source of value. Marxist: The State must seize the means of production!

Marxist: Free education for all children in government schools. Marxian: I homeschool my kids to avoid capitalist and/or religious indoctrination.


Much obliged, that does make things considerably clearer.

Anonymous fop November 09, 2017 12:11 PM  

Perhaps the 16 points should have been translated into Midwit before it was translated into foreign tongues?

Blogger slarrow November 09, 2017 12:12 PM  

@FSL, that's just a description of trading goods. Vox explicitly includes services and labor and states that it is those aspects that require the free movement of peoples.

If you restrict Free Trade to goods only, then the free movement of peoples concept is not included. And then you deport and build a wall, and everyone's happy and intellectually consistent. But if you listen to the immigration and visa advocates (let alone the illegal immigrant apologists), it's clear that they think Free Trade does include labor and services. Hence the issues.

Blogger Nate November 09, 2017 12:12 PM  

"Perhaps the 16 points should have been translated into Midwit before it was translated into foreign tongues?"

I think this actually happened

Anonymous Toddy Cat November 09, 2017 12:13 PM  

I'll stick with the comment that I made over at Z-Man's. Derbyshire is one of the people whose courage and outspokenness made the Alt-Right possible, but his naive faith in the scientific community of today is misplaced and dangerous. Both he and I grew up in a world where science put men on the Moon, won wars, and cured terrible diseases, and it was both right and proper to have at least some faith in, and and respect for, that science. But that's not the world we're living in now, or the kind of science we have, at least not for the most part. But in his defense, Derbyshire is getting up there, and it can be hard to adjust. As someone once said "Everybody dies in a foreign country..."

Blogger James Dixon November 09, 2017 12:13 PM  

> I think this actually happened

Yes, but I don't think it made the official translation list.

Blogger bw November 09, 2017 12:16 PM  

If we are merely an "attitude", then how does one describe those things to which we are an alternative?

open palm smack sound echo

since half of the Christian Bible is about them

..and what did the Christian founder say about the rabbis and synagogue?
ie. Judaism is a conscious rejection of Christianity, and therefore, of the West

we shall all become globalists overnight

How cute, the MIC bankstas and lil' Ronnie Reagan in the well of the UN

I doubt there is an existential threat to white people

Says those who married outside their race?


Anonymous kfg November 09, 2017 12:16 PM  

@16: "I think you would more aptly call it the San Francisco of the Middle East"

I meant in the period of Canaanite collapse. I should have made my language there more precise.

Blogger S1AL November 09, 2017 12:16 PM  

"If you restrict Free Trade to goods only, then the free movement of peoples concept is not included."

Do you support the legalization of possession and trade of nuclear weapons between individuals?

(This is Platonic Free Trade reaches nonsense levels.)

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 09, 2017 12:17 PM  

"No, we won't. Reality is not Star Trek. The entire written history of Man indicates that should slave traders arrive from Alpha Centauri, the various human elites will hasten to make deals with them to set up satrapies over which they will rule to provide them with the slaves they seek. See: the history of the slave trade in Africa."

LOL not to cry. SO freaking true. So freaking true.

Anonymous grayman November 09, 2017 12:18 PM  

Read all of these various individuals it has struck me for a while that while Zman, Derb and several others have insightful commentary, they are also tied up in a certain amount of cognitive dissonance.
I think it's simply a case of the transitional nature of things at this stage in events. We all recognize the old world is dead and the west is, for the most part busy animating a corpse at this point. None of us know what comes next or when, at the level that personally impacts us even if we can make broad statements on the direction of events based on historical cycles. As such the majority of the current "thought leaders" of the X-right spectrum will be replaced over time as events evolve.
There may be 1 or 2 key figure in the scene now that will be significant in 10 years, but most of the players at this point are simply "birthing" the greater movement.

That said I think most of these guys are complimentary but that Vox is probably the more realistic of the group, less tied up with cognitive dissonance.

One other possible difference is that Vox has clearly embraced socionomics, where as I have not seen that from Zman or Derb. Incorporating socionomics into your outlook requires certain assumptions that should more or less break the cognitive dissonance seen in Zman and Derb.

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 09, 2017 12:19 PM  

@1. Solaire Of Astora

It is the history of the of Israel, once Jacob was renamed. Until then, it was the history of creation and of the Hebrews.

Blogger Ninco Nanco November 09, 2017 12:21 PM  

"When, a few days before heading to Baltimore, I sat down to prepare my remarks, I realized I had no idea what to say, nor even much of a clue about what the Alt Right is."

What?! Derb's had Richard Spencer over for dinner!

Anonymous fop November 09, 2017 12:22 PM  

LOL not to cry. SO freaking true. So freaking true.

Did he never watch Stargate for crying out loud?

Anonymous Patron November 09, 2017 12:23 PM  

Nate wrote:"Perhaps the 16 points should have been translated into Midwit before it was translated into foreign tongues?"

I think this actually happened


There's a 100 IQ (SD-zero) version:

http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/alt-right-what-it-is.html

However there's no midwit (SD+1 or SD+2) one that I'm aware of.

Blogger WynnLloyd November 09, 2017 12:27 PM  

His writing is not very enjoyable to read, in my opinion. It can really try your patience. Nitpicking over "Marxian?" Totally unnecessary. The "Aristotle had a philosophy" criticism is most definitely obnoxious as well as pointless. The term is used in different ways all the time, and it's extremely annoying that he insisted on only the most rigid use of it, as if we're all honor bound to use language only within the limits of the Edwardian era. The point about asteroids and alien slavers is so ridiculous it doesn't deserve to even be addressed. The idea that there is no existential threat to white people is absurd. Is it even worthy of being addressed? How can the outright replacement of peoples not constitute an "existential threat." The left certainly sees an existential threat to white people. They revel in it constantly. White, Western civilization is most definitely facing an existential threat.
I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't some envy involved. Thought leaders seem to nearly always criticize up-and-coming movements. Articles on Taki's are informative and worthwhile but the 16 points provide a common platform for all of us to act on. The 16 points are certainly much more valid as a political "philosophy" than his whole "arctic alliance" proposition, which is just a reflection of his own marriage projected outwards. Unlike some, I can't knock him too hard for loving a Chinese woman as I found them irresistible also at one point, but the idea of East Asians and Europeans aligning and creating a new racial order is totally implausible. Sure, some Asian chicks like us, but on the whole East Asians are only on the side of East Asians.

It's an unnecessary and pedantic attempt to put down an idea that has an actual value outside of the abstract world of ideas and learned discussions.
Then again I may be a little harsh here. The 16 points are essential, regardless.

Blogger slarrow November 09, 2017 12:30 PM  

S1AL, I was just delineating the concepts. I didn't say I was for any of it.

And Plato wouldn't have allowed free trade anyway, the proto-commie bastard.

(Yes, I know what you mean by Platonic. This is a joke.)

Blogger Salt November 09, 2017 12:32 PM  

"I doubt there is an existential threat to white people."

How can he possibly say such, given his admission that "“diversity” in its current sense ... as a code word for massive, deliberate racial replacement... Vox's] equation, and the embedding sentence, are both correct."

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) November 09, 2017 12:32 PM  

The society Derb describes here is not the historical America society.

I’m a salt-in-the-stew diversitarian. I want to live in a society with a big fat racial and ethnic supermajority: somewhere north of ninety percent. Small minorities of Others can then be accommodated with friendly hospitality and accorded full equality under law. (I don’t say they necessarily will be; but they can be.)

Anonymous Jeff November 09, 2017 12:34 PM  

Free trade, by definition, concerns unrestricted exchanges between two private parties. These exchanges may involve goods, capital, services, and labor. In order to freely provide services or labor, the providing party must be able to travel to the location of the receiving party in order to fulfill his end of the exchange. Therefore, free trade requires the free movement of peoples.

As a bonus proof, I will point out that in order to achieve the maximum efficiencies theoretically provided by the free market, both labor and capital must be able to travel to the most efficient production sites. Any failure to restrict this travel will necessarily create inefficiencies and therefore prevent the economy from reaching its maximum growth potential.


This is a very useful summary that I'm going to keep in my back pocket for debating purposes.

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 09, 2017 12:34 PM  

@8. VD

I must have Marxian inclination because I do think that labor is the main source of value. Ideas, have values but they must be communicated through some action.

Now, in what units must labor be measured, and how much someone's labor is worth someone else's is subjective and to be decided by the parties in some exchange.

Blogger S1AL November 09, 2017 12:35 PM  

@slarrow - It was a rhetorical question.

And yes, Plato was a bit of a nut. Which is the observable, irrational result of choosing the logical over the empirical...

Blogger S1AL November 09, 2017 12:38 PM  

"Now, in what units must labor be measured, and how much someone's labor is worth someone else's is subjective and to be decided by the parties in some exchange."

Congratulations, you just defined a supply-demand curve that compares labor to utility to reach equilibrium.

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 09, 2017 12:41 PM  

@14. Ron Winkleheimer

I will take a look at Torchwood.

Blogger pyrrhus November 09, 2017 12:42 PM  

Derb at his most annoying...Richard Feynman, probably the greatest American scientist, said that "there are things we are 99.99% sure of, but nothing we are 100% certain is true"....Scientific "consensus" is usually an establishment position, historically often wrong, but there has never been a poll of all scientists in the field to find out what their actual opinions might be on the subject. For example, the alleged consensus on warming was a complete fraud, as most scientists disagreed with one or more aspects of the theory/religion.

Blogger pyrrhus November 09, 2017 12:44 PM  

Derb, of course, having married a Chinese woman, may not be completely objective on the subject of white extinction.

Blogger Ninco Nanco November 09, 2017 12:44 PM  

"Natural selection plays an important role in the evolution of life. I promise Vox Day there will be no future revisions of these facts, at any rate not on any time span he or I need worry about."

Hopeless! Just hopeless!

Blogger Positive Dennis November 09, 2017 12:46 PM  

If you want a weekly dose of Derb listen to his podcast. Twice a month is about all i can take

Anonymous kfg November 09, 2017 12:52 PM  

@40:

Abraham was not a Jew, nor even a Hebrew. Still, the transition happens very early in the text and Abraham was the father, so the origin of the Israelites legitimately begins there.

In my youthful investigations into world history, one of the surprises I had is that the Israelites are a relatively recent people, arising from a high civilization (pick Egypt, Canaan or both) within the historic period.

Blogger Philip Morris November 09, 2017 12:53 PM  

"Any failure to restrict this travel will necessarily create inefficiencies and therefore prevent the economy from reaching its maximum growth potential."

Am I simply failing to parse this sentence correctly? Since any restriction will create the inefficiencies referred to, should it not be something along the lines of "Any failure to facilitate this travel ..."?

Anonymous SidVic November 09, 2017 12:55 PM  

Derbyshire is one of my touchstones. I've found him to be clear thinking on issues to which i am expert, and thus, value his judgement on those where i am not. Micheal burry and Kyle Bass are my touchstones on things involving the market. I am very selective in my touchstones.
My take is that JDs exposition on the alt-right principals is as full-throated endorsement as you could hope from a cranky old conservative like JD. I would love to hear a long format discussion between VD and JD. Incidentally, JDs firing by NRO woke me concerning the JQ and cuckdom among conservatives.. I truly despise Lowry and Goldberg.

Blogger pyrrhus November 09, 2017 12:55 PM  

As to Free Trade, its entire history in the West is that entire industries in the countries involved will be eviscerated, with a huge loss of embedded capital and skills. And that embedded capital is not mobile at all, try selling used tractors from the UK to American farmers, or obsolete screen manufacturing machinery to Taiwan. Consequently, there will be labor migration or simply large parts of the population suffering a calamitous loss of income...

Blogger Ninco Nanco November 09, 2017 12:55 PM  

"No, we won't. Reality is not Star Trek"

lol

Blogger James Dixon November 09, 2017 12:56 PM  

> Read all of these various individuals it has struck me for a while that while Zman, Derb and several others have insightful commentary, they are also tied up in a certain amount of cognitive dissonance.

None of us are perfect. Pick all the sources of useful information and ideas you want, in the end you have to think for yourself.

Anonymous Patron November 09, 2017 12:56 PM  

JaimeInTexas wrote:@8. VD

I must have Marxian inclination because I do think that labor is the main source of value. Ideas, have values but they must be communicated through some action.

Now, in what units must labor be measured, and how much someone's labor is worth someone else's is subjective and to be decided by the parties in some exchange.


That just means the actual value is in your head, and not due to the labour involved (ie, it's subjective):

"I think my chair is worth more than your chair because [insert reason here]."

The reason could be any number of things - the hours involved, the skill involved, the materials, the quality of the finished product, etc etc etc. You weigh those different possibilities in your head in a different manner to how I weigh them.

You may think that the labour (however defined) that goes into making that chair is, or should be, the main determinant, but that's only your subjective opinion, no more or less correct than mine.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer November 09, 2017 12:57 PM  

#52

Be warned, for some reason they decided they had to make the protagonist "suddenly gay."

Blogger Ninco Nanco November 09, 2017 12:59 PM  

Your responses to point 8 are so important. Derb's seems to embrace scientism, and we cannot get anywhere if we don't clear out this underbrush.

Anonymous Jeff November 09, 2017 1:00 PM  

The expressed opinions that make up the consensus may be based on anything from a personal use of the scientific process to a) desire to obtain grant money, b) political ideology, c) identity, d) mental illness, e) sexual desire, f) personal ambition, or g) anything else capable of influencing one's opinion.

97% of scientists agree about global warming!

Blogger LES November 09, 2017 1:04 PM  

@49 Labor is not the main source of value. Wealth is created by manufacturing, utilities, mining, fishing, forestry and construction. Pounding sand all day does not create wealth.

Wages are determined by supply and demand. That's why unions were created. To protect wages from the forces of supply and demand. As we see the supply of labor is being manipulated to keep wages low.

Anonymous kfg November 09, 2017 1:06 PM  

"97% of scientists agree about global warming!"

We know this because we took a poll - and 50.01% our membership agree that 97% of scientists agree about global warming.

Someday we might even take a poll to find out what it is about global warming that they agree about.

Blogger JohnofAustria November 09, 2017 1:08 PM  

Is Derb just riffing with his definitional nit-picking, or is he refusing to see? I'm hoping because it's a speech he just funnin' as we say round here, but it's not clear. And being a pedant about things like new words or using only the high-brow definition of "philosophy" makes him seem unserious, and to his own detriment.

Anonymous Gen. Kong November 09, 2017 1:08 PM  

97% of scientists agree about global warming!

Along with 100% of the backers of the Goldman-Sachs Cowfart Hedge Fund. The scientific shahada resonates through the hallowed halls of academia every day:

There is no truth but warming, and Algore is its profit!

Time to bend over and assume the position.

Blogger James Dixon November 09, 2017 1:11 PM  

> Someday we might even take a poll to find out what it is about global warming that they agree about.

"We need more money to study the effects of global warming".

Blogger Out of Nod November 09, 2017 1:11 PM  

Mr. Derbyshire needs to read The Irrational Atheist (or he can't piece together Greek). You explained the terms in depth and anyone familiar with that work knows what you mean by Point 8.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents November 09, 2017 1:12 PM  

Is Derb just riffing with his definitional nit-picking, or is he refusing to see?

Probably sperging. He's very good at math puzzles.

Anonymous 4388 November 09, 2017 1:14 PM  

I'm fairly certain I'm midwit range, and I find the 16 points to be quite comprehensible. So far, the critiques I've seen from fellow +1/+2 right-wingers have exhibited more cognitive dissonance than lack of understanding. "This makes sense, so I must pretend it means something else rather than include myself in a group widely regarded as Nazis."

This is aggravated by the incessant shrill lecturing of the Fake Right.

Blogger Desdichado November 09, 2017 1:14 PM  

Point 6: When the slave traders arrive from Alpha Centauri, or an asteroid hits, or a supervolcano pops, we shall all become globalists overnight.

No, we won't. Reality is not Star Trek. The entire written history of Man indicates that should slave traders arrive from Alpha Centauri, the various human elites will hasten to make deals with them to set up satrapies over which they will rule to provide them with the slaves they seek. See: the history of the slave trade in Africa.


Or the Roman invasion of Gaul. Or of Britain. Or the Viking and later Norman invasions of Ireland. Or the Colonial invasion of New England.

The list goes on and on. His claim is bizarrely ignorant of history.

Anonymous Infinite Recursion November 09, 2017 1:16 PM  

@68 kfg
Someday we might even take a poll to find out what it is about global warming that they agree about.

First take a poll on whether to take that poll or not.

Anonymous patrick kelly November 09, 2017 1:16 PM  

So point 15 is all about the significance of obsolete tasks? Who knew?

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents November 09, 2017 1:19 PM  

@69 John of Austria
Is Derb just riffing with his definitional nit-picking, or is he refusing to see?

Most likely sperging. He's very good at math puzzles.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 09, 2017 1:23 PM  

The entire written history of Man indicates that should slave traders arrive from Alpha Centauri, the various human elites will hasten to make deals with them to set up satrapies over which they will rule to provide them with the slaves they seek.

Ron Winkleheimer wrote:In regards to alien slavers, Torchwood did a story line on that. Aliens show up and demand 10% of the Earth's children, we choose which 10%. The rich and powerful immediately start plotting how to make sure its the children of the poor and weak that are to be sacrificed. Also, the aliens know that we will provide the kids because we had provided a much smaller number of kids a few decades ago.

See also: PizzaGate and Jacques Vallees.

But hey, I'm just this crazy guy over here what thinks he's caveman otherkin. Pay no mind.

Blogger tuberman November 09, 2017 1:29 PM  

A large part of both Derb's an Zboy's intended knocks to the 16 points is through "science," so it amuses me to pick on Derb's science.

"A water molecule has two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Natural selection plays an important role in the evolution of life."

The suggestion here is water is science at it's simplest, and H2O will forever be H20. This is so far behind the times, it is a joke, as there are several variations of the water molecule, and H16O9 is probably more common than H2O, and it has bee discovered that there are more states to water then the three previous ones projected, moreover, water inside a living cell, or even in a living body is quite different from water outside.

But, hey, this was simple and science had simple H2O down long ago. No.


Natural Selection playing an important role seems solid, except his use of "Natural selection" is so vague in his use as to have little to no meaning. He obviously did not want to nail it's meaning down to Darwin or Neo-Darwin "Natural selection," as they can be disproved dozens of ways.

Anonymous kfg November 09, 2017 1:30 PM  

@75: "First take a poll on whether to take that poll or not."

Before we can do that we'll have to organize a series of annual consensus conferences at 5 star resorts in order to craft a proposal that we should craft a proposal.

Footnote: It occurs to me that some might find that figure of 50.01% less than entirely credible. The raw data was 49/51 against, but after adjustment and tuning the model the 49% turned out to actually be 50.01.

The perspicacious among you might note that the total now exceeds 100%, but if you don't point it out to Lord Monckton, neither will we and we'll just hope he doesn't notice on his own.

Blogger tuberman November 09, 2017 1:39 PM  

Infinite Recursion wrote:@68 kfg

Someday we might even take a poll to find out what it is about global warming that they agree about.

First take a poll on whether to take that poll or not.


Naw, first hire me to form a meeting, for a high fee + expenses, and add an extra several K per hour, and expect the meeting to take several days. I will get it ironed out, or at least form another group to look into it.

Blogger tuberman November 09, 2017 1:40 PM  

In the meeting, we will update the computer models.

Anonymous Gen. Kong November 09, 2017 1:40 PM  

While Derb likes to deny the genocidal nature of the SJW enemy, things like sentencing people to prison for stating that there are no black Celts is commonplace in the EUSSR, including the UK okrug where Derb was born (no it has not departed from EUSSR and will require years to do so - if ever - thanks to the treasonous cat lady Teresa May).

Blogger tuberman November 09, 2017 1:44 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger tuberman November 09, 2017 1:46 PM  

Let me see Derb is someone I followed and will still follow with some extra grains of salt.

Zman, I never followed, and I will never look into him, as he "plays false," and that is a deal-breaker for me.

Anonymous fop November 09, 2017 1:46 PM  

I'm fairly certain I'm midwit range, and I find the 16 points to be quite comprehensible. So far, the critiques I've seen from fellow +1/+2 right-wingers have exhibited more cognitive dissonance than lack of understanding.


The whole reason for a bullet-point manifesto is so that Joe Blow can read it, get it, and pass it on to others. Joe Blow isn't going to parse very far. He certainly isn't going to expend energy on words that don't even exist in the lexicon.

If we've learned anything from Trump it's that persuasion has little to do with accuracy.

Blogger VD November 09, 2017 1:48 PM  

The whole reason for a bullet-point manifesto is so that Joe Blow can read it, get it, and pass it on to others.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote it as a conceptual starting point. Modify it as you see fit before passing it out.

Blogger tuberman November 09, 2017 1:52 PM  

What's really funny, is this likely WON'T END HERE.

Blogger Desdichado November 09, 2017 1:56 PM  

VD wrote:The whole reason for a bullet-point manifesto is so that Joe Blow can read it, get it, and pass it on to others.

That isn't what I wrote. I wrote it as a conceptual starting point. Modify it as you see fit before passing it out.

That's how I always understood it's intent; kind of an open source foundation rather than the expected end state that works for everyone.

Anonymous Killua November 09, 2017 1:56 PM  

"97% of scientists agree about global warming!"

And the other 3% were either paid by the oil consortium or are allergic to polar bears.

Blogger Desdichado November 09, 2017 1:57 PM  

tuberman wrote:What's really funny, is this likely WON'T END HERE.
Probably not. But it'll be the fanboys carrying it, not the principals.

Anonymous BBGKB November 09, 2017 1:59 PM  

Point 1: I don’t know what a Marxian is. Typo for “Martian”?

Someone with poor marxmanship:

Anders Breivik required 121 shots to kill 77
Bernie Bro at GOP ball field fired 50+ rounds 0 kills
Copenhagen moslem attack had 200 rounds fired with only one dead that was not the cartoonist target

When the slave traders arrive from Alpha Centauri,...we shall all become globalists overnight

How many humans would be worth the effort to transport to Alpha Centauri vs. earth made robotics. Part of the US problem is affirmative action token hires that you would function better without them. I am honest enough to say Voyagers medical hologram would be better than me.

So a supervolcano would have people welcoming in refugees? If it was in the US would nations accept US refugees given that all the US surplus food wouldn't be coming for years? If in Africa would anyone want to take in 100 million Niggerians?

Point 8: It’s what? The word “scientody” is not known to dictionary

Soldiers that didn't get deployed to the first Gulf War are healthier than those stayed behind. If you ignore that a normal pregnancy counted the same as a man going to the ER 20+ times in 9 months, & all military cancer cases were on the non deployable side.

In other news gay parents are better than STR8 parents. If you ignore only gays with $50k to throw away on buying kids got compared to Latrina's 21 crackbabies.

Point 14. I doubt there is an existential threat to white people.

33% of world population at WWII 8% now. Everyone wants the golden eggs white people produce but no one is willing to do the work to produce themselves.

Given the rate at which the Western world is descending into plumbing-free barbarism, hunting with spears may well prove to be a more important skill in the near future than the ability to solve advanced mathematical problems

Take that all who laughed at my "How to start a fire with just a koran, bacon grease & potassium permanganate"

biblically illiterate. The Old Testament is about the Israelites of which Jews are only a subset

Not only that but the bible was about religious jews, and our friend Benji Shapiro explained how few those are.

Torchwood did a story line on that. Aliens show up and demand 10% of the Earth's children, we choose which 10%.

The story said they chose the stupidest which is reality Nick Griffon would gladly give up the Stupidest as they would all be minorities, the (((show showed))) only giving up whites.

San Francisco apartment dwellers debating the ethics of owner real property..consensus was that owning real property was inherently wrong

26 I would agree given that affirmative action builders don't know that skyscrapers need to be secured to bedrock. http://www.businessinsider.com/is-millennium-tower-safe-still-leaning-sinking-2017-9

The suggestion here is water is science at it's simplest, and H2O will forever be H20. This is so far behind the times, it is a joke, as there are several variations of the water molecule

Didn't a feminist discover heavy water?

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 09, 2017 1:59 PM  

@67. LES November 09, 2017 1:04 PM

"... manufacturing, utilities, mining, fishing, forestry and construction."

I use labor it means work or action. It may or may not be hired.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener November 09, 2017 2:03 PM  

@80 A water molecule has two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

Great example. Derb is confusing a model with reality. If water has one oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms, and that's all there is to it, then what's the explanation for where the pH of water comes from?

Reality is a lot more complicated than the conceptual models we frequently apply, and the differences between reality and our models becomes important when we want to expand technology beyond the boundaries of what is well known.

Anonymous Critically Bent November 09, 2017 2:08 PM  

@5

I teach science in the public skrewls and use that sort of phrasing. Goes something like, "When we say the word 'science,' we can mean a lot of different things. What do you think somebody who is called a scientist does during their day?"

Then I differentiate between the method, knowledge, and profession of science. Answering emails isn't science, but a scientist does it most everyday.

@12

This one is Derb's most intellectually disappointing misstep. Sure, 'scientody' sounds funny, but the devision of meanings in the word is accurate and reflects reality. It is really obvious to anybody who has been remotely observant and been around working scientists at all.

Blogger James Dixon November 09, 2017 2:09 PM  

> And the other 3% were either paid by the oil consortium or are allergic to polar bears.

Everyone is allergic to polar bears, especially hungry ones. The allergy usually exhibits as open sores with severe bleeding.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener November 09, 2017 2:23 PM  

OT, but Steve Keen namedrops Vox on Zerohedge

Anonymous fop November 09, 2017 2:26 PM  

I wrote it as a conceptual starting point. Modify it as you see fit before passing it out.

Derb and Zman have taken this advice to heart.

Blogger tuberman November 09, 2017 2:31 PM  

It's interesting, all these mentions of VD just lately. Hmm, wondering what it will b e like after Alt*Hero comes out?

Anonymous Athor Pel November 09, 2017 2:36 PM  

I take Vox's unique turns of phrase and coining of words to be levers into the minds of the curious. Combined with a non-mainstream point of view and it all also functions as a machine to unmask liars.

Blogger seeingsights November 09, 2017 2:49 PM  

These posts about John Derbyshire corroborate what I suspected: he's not a good arguer. I would not want him on my debate team. He's like a "man of letters"--someone who writes essays on various topics. Nothing wrong with that. But arguing like a debater or a philosopher is not his wheel house.

Blogger WynnLloyd November 09, 2017 2:49 PM  

Yes! Damn it's annoying.

Anonymous I'm Not a Fascist. But My Sons Are. November 09, 2017 2:49 PM  

Derbyshire is high on his own farts.

In the end, just another Boomer that needs to 'get on with it', as it were.

Anonymous Every. Single. Time. November 09, 2017 2:59 PM  

@53 pyrrhus 'Feynman was a great scientist.' ((Slick Dick)) was an atomist, which flows from ((their)) belief systems, and it's sophistry at best. See https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1QZzVoMvfh8 to understand why we the likes of Tesla had the truth.

Anonymous Stickwick November 09, 2017 3:01 PM  

Reality is not Star Trek. The entire written history of Man indicates that should slave traders arrive from Alpha Centauri, the various human elites will hasten to make deals with them to set up satrapies over which they will rule to provide them with the slaves they seek.

And I for one welcome our new insect overlords. I’d like to remind them that as a trusted TV personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves. -- Kent Brockman

Blogger Desdichado November 09, 2017 3:03 PM  

Here's an interesting find. Derbyshire pretends to have no idea what the words scientody et al mean, yet he recommended The Irrational Atheist ten years ago as a must-read?

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/222880/christmas-shopping-2007-nro-symposium

Sounds like he must review himself, since he doesn't remember anything that he read.

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales November 09, 2017 3:09 PM  

@52

Don't. It's a spin-off of Dr. Who and there are fags GALORE. Heck, isn't the captain a fag?

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales November 09, 2017 3:13 PM  

@55

Very hopeless, which is why that, if Race is the most important thing ever... the white population would need to kill a good chunk of their population because that chunk is so fucking hopelesss that they can't see what I, a fucking beaner, and not even a particularly white looking beaner (though I have white, hispanic family. Thank you George Zimmerman), can see with my own two fucking eyes, and that is that there is a concerted, globalist effort to destroy not just the West but its originators, IE, honkeys.

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales November 09, 2017 3:16 PM  

@61

To be fair, though, I don't think the Federation was founded because of a fear of alien invaders, not in the same way some other sci-fi/space opera factions were founded.

Anonymous fop November 09, 2017 3:17 PM  

I take Vox's unique turns of phrase and coining of words to be levers into the minds of the curious. Combined with a non-mainstream point of view and it all also functions as a machine to unmask liars.

I appreciate a precise and pithy phrase, and I'm a fan of voxian neologisms. But can you imagine if Vox wrote the Nicene Creed?
Constantinople might never have gotten off the ground.

"We believe in the UniTheos, the omniderigent protopater..."


Anonymous I'm Not a Fascist. But My Sons Are. November 09, 2017 3:24 PM  

We believe in the UniTheos, the omniderigent protopater...

lol.

It is now, always has been and likely always will be sell me this pen.

Blogger Blue November 09, 2017 3:27 PM  

What a try-hard.

Blogger horsewithnonick November 09, 2017 3:27 PM  

You mean Jack Harkness? Not so sudden; he was pretty much promiscuously pansexual from his introduction on Doctor Who.

Anonymous Brick Hardslab November 09, 2017 3:36 PM  

Jack's pretty much dropped the whole pan sex thing and went full on gay.

Blogger S1AL November 09, 2017 3:47 PM  

"We believe in the UniTheos, the omniderigent protopater..."

This may be the funniest thing I've read this week.

Blogger Resident Moron™ November 09, 2017 4:22 PM  

"there is a concerted, globalist effort to destroy not just the West but its originators, IE, honkeys"

I don't believe this is the case. Indeed I believe the opposite to be true.

Take the War on Drugs. Naive people howl and moan about what a failure it is, accepting at face value the claimed intentions of the lying, thieving, murdering scum prosecuting the war.

Hmmm...

I ignore almost totally what they say and focus on the results. I pay the rulers of our world the minimal respect of assuming they're not complete morons and can predict obvious consequences from overt and unsubtle actions.

So the actual intentions of the War on Drugs are to produce the actual consequences:
- illicit money goes to the CIA, DEA, BATF, and friends
- licit money goes to police, judges, prison operators, social workers, and friends
- power goes to parliamentarians and those who finance them, and friends
- etc

The actual intentions of the War on Whitey are the actual consequences:
Chapter 1: Whitey Wakes Up
Chapter 2: Whitey Sees the Invading Hordes Trampling the Flower of Whitey Civilization Underfoot
Chapter 3: Whitey Mad
Chapter 4: Whitey Goes on a Global Imperial Rampage
Chapter 5: Whitey Calms Down
Chapter 6: Whitey Buries Several Billion Dead Non-Whitey
Chapter 7: Whitey Mutters "See what you made me do!"

We've become far too soft even for our own elite's purposes. If they want to rule the world, and they do, and they want to rule a world with indoor plumbing, and they do, then they need us mad, motivated, and murdering.

What better way to achieve this objective than "Invade the World / Invite the World"?

That's my theory, anyway.

Blogger James November 09, 2017 4:30 PM  

kfg wrote:@40:

Abraham was not a Jew, nor even a Hebrew. Still, the transition happens very early in the text and Abraham was the father, so the origin of the Israelites legitimately begins there.



You are right in that Abraham was not a jew, but Abraham is the first person called a Hebrew (Genesis 14:13) in the Biblical text. What does the name Hebrew mean and where does it come from? Abraham's great-great-great-great-great grandfather was Ever (or Eber) "And Arpakshad (the son of Shem, grandson of Noah) bore Shalach who bore Ever" (Genesis 10:24). The Hebrew spelling of the word Hebrew is עברי and the Hebrew spelling of Ever is עבר. When the letter י is placed after a name it means "one belonging to the family of ..." and in this case a Hebrew is one who belongs to the family of Eber. By definition, a Hebrew is one who is descended from Eber and this would include Abraham as well as his brothers Nahor and Haran. At least this is the most common interpretation.

Blogger Buybuydandavis November 09, 2017 4:32 PM  

Point 1: I don’t know what a Marxian is. Typo for “Martian”?

One of my pet peeves is people who think they win arguments through language usage.

If he had wanted to *understand* what you meant, 3 seconds of googling would have led him to as much about Marxian as he could want.

1st google - Marxian
"related to doctrines of Marx" - obvious, but not illuminating
2nd google - marxian vs. marxist
Tons of stuff

Anonymous kfg November 09, 2017 4:42 PM  

@118: " . . . in this case a Hebrew is one who belongs to the family of Eber. By definition, a Hebrew is one who is descended from Eber and this would include Abraham . . ."

Point to you. I had my head locked in linguistic mode when it should have been in tribal.

Blogger Ingot9455 November 09, 2017 4:47 PM  

You have a shovel.
I have a spoon.
Our job is to fill sandbags with sand from a pile.
Whose labor is worth more?

Blogger Docent November 09, 2017 5:08 PM  

"What the Alt Right has is an attitude."
What the Alt Right has is evidence based politics.

Blogger cheddarman November 09, 2017 5:43 PM  

@ 21 Indian programmers in the US are an example of free movement of labor

OpenID franklinfreek November 09, 2017 5:45 PM  

Derbyshire ends with:

"I’d prefer to get my manifesto from someone acquainted with the elementary principles of scientific inquiry.".

I think I'd rather have Vox's manifesto interpreted by someone acquainted with the elementary principles of scientific inquiry.

I've been an engineer all my adult life, and when I finally read Popper (via Taleb) several years back I was gratified to see my world view reinforced (and modified) by a formal philosophical treatise.

Said world view created by building things that have to work in the real world.

I'm disappointed that there are people on the alt-right such as ZMan and Derbyshire who don't understand the elementary principles of scientific inquiry, and use that misunderstanding to create public controversy.

Blogger tublecane November 09, 2017 6:07 PM  

About free trade, of course it would require free movement of peoples if applied consistently. I think the Derb has just never met any free trade absolutists, and indeed there aren't many in existence. Because if you don't make exceptions, for instance to the age of people participating in trades, you end up with all sorts of unsavory things like child prostitutes.

Problem with ardent free traders, especially if they happen to be rationalistic libertarians (of the First Principle variety), is that they don't properly grapple with the necessity of exceptions. Probably because they're lazy, and reasoning from the basis of preferred freedoms with no exceptions admitted unless pressed to the wall makes working through issues tougher.

But they'll have to make exceptions, as every serious thinker must, and every time it does they injure their pseudo-rationalistic system. Because if we can have laws against murder-for-hire or voluntary slavery, why not against crossing borders willy-nilly? Or against usury, for that matter?

Not that libertarians can't argue against this and for that. For instance, plenty of them are in favor of free trade up to the border, but not beyond. It's just that a lot of them, those of the absolutist or rationalistic temperament, aren't up to making the argument.

It's easier not to bother.

Blogger tublecane November 09, 2017 6:08 PM  

@125-Sorry, when I said "makes working through issues tougher," I meant easier.

Blogger tublecane November 09, 2017 6:15 PM  

@49-"I do think that labor is the main source of value"

This can be easily disproven by spending a day in totally unproductive labor, like digging a hole and refilling it.

Unless by source of value you mean something like thing which I like personally and want to reward.

Anonymous BBGKB November 09, 2017 6:19 PM  

Don't. It's a spin-off of Dr. Who and there are fags GALORE. Heck, isn't the captain a fag?

He was cast as pansexual, but the only sign he was ever with a woman was the episode that he sacrificed his white grandson to save the stupidest 10% of the world. Oy Vey the narrative really stands out there.

Anonymous Simplytimothy November 09, 2017 6:31 PM  

As "abandon all hope ye who enter here" is to the gates to hell, so "abandon all imprecision ye who converse here" is to science and Derb is the English Mastiff* guarding the gate.


While Derb is absolutely right to hold that line, he is wrong to concede the utility of Vox's terms.

In Derbs sciutopia there is only the sin of imprecision. The lies and deception by a Michael Mann are waved away because they do not rise to the level of science (in Derb's world)

Yet, outside the platonic and austere serenity of that world lies the scientist, Mann, doing scientific work in the name of science and lying his ass off in the pursuit of a murderous agenda.

How then to attack Mann while not attacking science? Distinctions are needed to clear the rhetorical are a and Vox provides them.






*Yorkie jokes are not appropriate

Anonymous Avalanche November 09, 2017 6:39 PM  

@59 " I would love to hear a long format discussion between VD and JD. "

Oooh!Yes! THAT would be amazing! (Even IF much of it must necessarily entail Vox correcting and educating The Derb!)

Anonymous Avalanche November 09, 2017 6:46 PM  

@81 "we'll have to organize a series of annual consensus conferences"

Don't forget to have a poll to determine which Code of Conduct you're going to require!

Blogger Were-Puppy November 09, 2017 7:00 PM  

@107 Desdichado

Sounds like he must review himself, since he doesn't remember anything that he read.
---

As we start getting older, these things can happen

Anonymous Avalanche November 09, 2017 7:19 PM  

@125 "free trade absolutists,... if you don't make exceptions, for instance to the age of people participating in trades, you end up with all sorts of unsavory things like child prostitutes."

Wow. Hit it outta the park there! Reminded me of the old joke:

Would you have sex with me for a million dollars?
Uh. Okay.
Would you sleep with me for $10?
NO! What kind of a girl do you think I am?!
We have already determined what kind of a girl you are; now we're merely discussing price.

Should make a helluva DENT in a free trader!

Blogger Cloom Glue November 09, 2017 7:20 PM  

@22 F.Y.I.
The VD reply to your trade-means-people-movement question was posted in another thread, by accident it seems: See comment #26 VD here: https://voxday.blogspot.com/2017/11/more-harassment-at-npr.html

I see five other replies here, by searching "free movement". That topic interested me.

Anonymous Haxo Angmaerk November 09, 2017 7:22 PM  

re #14:

Derbyshire is married to a slant, and breeds more slants.

he is a White man who has signed on to racial and civilizational self-liquidation.

and BTW, VD: if if the current kosher Culture of Death (legalized abortion, porn, faggotry, judeofeminism)-induced collapse of the White birthrate in Europe/North America continues and the

Judeo-globalist insourcing of non-White orcs continues at present rates

Whites will be extinct by 2070-2090.

because: Jews do not wish to be pogrom'd, ghetto'd, or holocaust'd

ever

again.

and who can blame them, really?

Blogger Jefferson Kim November 09, 2017 8:37 PM  

Thanks for pointing out #13. I came to this realization discussing this issue with other Tom Woods' Contra Cruise attendees.

Many Closed Border libertarians may have also come to this realization, but are too afraid finally have to jettison the label, "Libertarian." There's already infighting on immigration alone.

Blogger spacehabitats November 09, 2017 9:51 PM  

I think there actually is some room for improvement on point 8. At least there is some evidence that "science" and even more generally "intelligence" could be used to easily obliterate the assumptions underlying politically correct ideologies. Fortunately, modern man has some tools that Aristotle could have only dreamed of. For example, if one can get past the Hollywood caricatures of artificial intelligence, there is a very real possibility that there could be a way of OBJECTIVELY measuring the validity of scientific hypotheses. No wonder the SJW social scientists are avoiding AI like the plague.
Red Ice TV had a YouTube interview with a VHIQ on the subject of AI today.

Blogger spacehabitats November 09, 2017 9:54 PM  

"James Bowery - Can We Benefit From Artificial Intelligence?"

https://youtu.be/563xZAV6C-M

Anonymous kfg November 09, 2017 10:02 PM  

" . . .there is some evidence that "science" and even more generally "intelligence" could be used to easily obliterate the assumptions underlying politically correct ideologies."

Patriarchy cleanup in aisle @136.

Anonymous Mr. Rational November 09, 2017 11:39 PM  

tuberman wrote:there are several variations of the water molecule, and H16O9 is probably more common than H2O
A search for "H16O9" turns up nothing relevant.  You're talking nonsense.

Killua wrote:the other 3% were either paid by the oil consortium or are allergic to polar bears.
Precisely.

Blogger tublecane November 09, 2017 11:51 PM  

@136-Computers are going to determine objective truth for us...somehow.

When it tells you whether or not there's a God, will you believe it? Because "singularity?"

Blogger Resident Moron™ November 10, 2017 12:20 AM  

Holocaust was evil, so this time WE’RE the perpetrators.

This time you’re going to deserve annihilation.

Anonymous Rocklea November 10, 2017 7:06 AM  

"If you restrict Free Trade to goods only, then the free movement of peoples concept is not included."

Still doesn't account for the forced movement though.
Things are always more complicated than they seem. Free Trade Doesn't Work by Ian Fletcher is a good place to start and well worth the read. A transaction is not a simple isolated event and global trade as it is currently constituted is much more detrimental than beneficial. Even if you stop the 'free movement' of peoples, the reckoning is still coming.

Socionomics is closer but even that is missing the mark. Babylon is immense this time around. In reality, one should have ZFG for what is happening outside one's immediate sphere of influence. This is True. The social mood metric is not meant to measure _everyone_ in a single system. Cascade collapse.

Blogger Duke Norfolk November 10, 2017 7:39 AM  

4388 wrote:I'm fairly certain I'm midwit range, and I find the 16 points to be quite comprehensible. So far, the critiques I've seen from fellow +1/+2 right-wingers have exhibited more cognitive dissonance than lack of understanding.

Ditto. FWIW

Blogger SirGroggy November 10, 2017 9:23 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger SirGroggy November 10, 2017 9:30 AM  

On a side note, it seems the issue with The Derb in this affair is not that he is lacking in cognitive abilities but rather he is a bit 'old school' and not as internet-savvy as us youngsters. He probably can't tell a Pepe from a Triggly Puff and it's because he's from the old guard. But it would be good if people like that could somehow be a bit more linked in to the internet Alt Right of which we are a part and least know what it is and be able to speak & write about it more accurately.

Blogger SirGroggy November 10, 2017 9:59 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Basket of Deplorables November 10, 2017 10:07 AM  

Vox, in the last sentence of point 13, is that a typo or do I have a fundamental misunderstanding of the argument that free trade = free movement of people? Shouldn't it be any restriction on travel would result in the second clause rather than any failure to restrict?

I am looking forward to Derb's reaction to this. Welcome to the alt right, Derb.

Blogger justaguy November 10, 2017 10:47 AM  

I wonder if Derb knows enough about quantum physics and the current un-explainable results of experiments involving conscious observation, photons, two slits and differing results that force questioning our understanding of materialism-- to understand how absolutely ignorant he(Derb) is about science. As a physicist by education and nuclear engineer by career (US Navy nuclear power where Rickover preferred engineers over scientists as scientist were not grounded enough in the real world to build things) I understand that science is a series of changing theories, with one theory overcoming another as new understanding is gained. But then I studied Popper in graduate school decades ago.

Blogger S1AL November 10, 2017 3:16 PM  

'A search for "H16O9" turns up nothing relevant. You're talking nonsense.'

I think he's referencing zwitterion structures, which betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of chemistry and definitional truth.

(This is why Derb's example is nonsense: the definition of water is circular truth, empirically derived, and impossible to change as a definitional truth).

Post a Comment

Rules of the blog
Please do not comment as "Anonymous". Comments by "Anonymous" will be spammed.

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts