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Friday, October 11, 2013

The slow birth of American secession

Pat Buchanan observes the growing incidence of secession movements, both in the USA and around the world:
What are the forces pulling nations apart? Ethnicity, culture, history and language – but now also economics. And separatist and secessionist movements are cropping up here in the United States.

While many red state Americans are moving away from blue state America, seeking kindred souls among whom to live, those who love where they live but not those who rule them are seeking to secede.

The five counties of western Maryland – Garrett, Allegheny, Washington, Frederick and Carroll, which have more in common with West Virginia and wish to be rid of Baltimore and free of Annapolis, are talking secession.

The issues driving secession in Maryland are gun control, high taxes, energy policy, homosexual marriage and immigration.

Scott Strzelczyk, who lives in the town of Windsor in Carroll County and leads the Western Maryland Initiative, argues: “If you have a long list of grievances, and it’s been going on for decades, and you can’t get it resolved, ultimately [secession] is what you have to do.”

And there is precedent. Four of our 50 states – Maine, Vermont, Kentucky, West Virginia – were born out of other states.
In both Catalonia and Lombardia, I have seen that the common people increasingly feel no loyalty to a central government of foreigners who treat them like milch cows while ruling them in an incompetent and self-serving manner. This growth of secessionism should not be surprising to anyone. Bob Prechter and others have long observed that political unions take place in economic booms, while disunions, both violent and non-violent, tend to take place in times of economic contraction.

And we are not even halfway through the Mother of all Contractions.

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145 Comments:

Anonymous p-dawg October 11, 2013 5:12 AM  

The Republic of Texas shall rise again!

Anonymous FrankNorman October 11, 2013 5:31 AM  

There's an interesting pattern through history. Sometimes smaller political entities are being absorbed into larger ones - city states becoming part of empires, kingdoms uniting under one crown, and so on.
And sometimes big empires start falling apart at the seams, with various regions turning into independent countries.

At the start of the 20th century, almost all of Europe was part of one or other of about five big empires. But two of those (Italy and Germany) had been cobbled together only a few decades earlier, and others were already beginning to crumble.

And after the Great War?
No more Ottoman Empire. No more Austria-Hungarian empire. The Russian empire took a nap, before reconstituting itself as the Soviet Union.

In the 1990's we saw Yugoslavia break apart. And again the Russians lost control of people like the Estonians or the various central-Asian "Stans".

In the UK, there are rumblings of "devolution". Will Scotland one day be an independent country again? Or Wales? Stranger things have happened.

And sometimes the people at the top are the last to know. Like Gorbachev walking into his office in the Kremlin and finding Yeltsin already sitting there.

Anonymous Roundtine October 11, 2013 5:36 AM  

The theme in almost every place in the U.S. is urban vs rural. They key to winning is not creating a new state (51). Northern CA, Eastern OR and Eastern WA could all secede and form a red state, while Western OR and WA form a blue state. Western MD can join PA and Philly can join Maryland or New Jersey. New York City can justifiably be a city state. This way Congress is more likely to approve it, since the number of Senators won't change.

Anonymous Roundtine October 11, 2013 5:39 AM  

Probably the largest metro areas: NYC, Chicago, LA, Atlanta, Dallas and Houston areas are next largest, but probably see no reason to leave Texas. LA also technically would have no reason, except then they could have two Latino Senators. Chicago could have two black Senators. Atlanta could have two black Senators. So +3 for diversity!

Blogger Shimshon October 11, 2013 5:49 AM  

I was in Barcelona in 1987, and even then, it was clear that Catalonians were rather uppity.

Anonymous FrankNorman October 11, 2013 5:59 AM  

Shimshon October 11, 2013 5:49 AM

I was in Barcelona in 1987, and even then, it was clear that Catalonians were rather uppity.


Shimshon - you're in Israel, if I recall correctly. I believe there was talk a while back of the secular Jews having their own state distinct from the religious ones.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza October 11, 2013 6:28 AM  

It is impossible to abide by the unjust, hollow, (nearly) insane players in times of great economic contraction or a crisis level depression in many households across this land. This land is foreign for some and some take notice that these laws don't apply to them. Unknowingly a sovereign citizen is made, so SC's might promote secession.

Blogger Shimshon October 11, 2013 6:29 AM  

FrankNorman, never heard of any such talk, though I don't doubt the seculars entertain such thoughts. It'll never happen. The demographics just don't support it. They have more kids than secular westerners in general, but still far fewer than the religious. Just to give you an idea, most of my friends, and the people I know in general, have six, seven, eight, even nine (or more) kids.

Blogger Some dude October 11, 2013 6:39 AM  

LOL. If you only knew what goes on here.

I know! They could call it Tel Aviv!

Anonymous Conrad The Crazed October 11, 2013 7:08 AM  

Nothing would please me more than to see an actual secession here in the USSA. But knowing how thoroughly corrupted the state legislatures themselves have been by the federal leviathan......well, lets just say I don't hold out much hope.

The last thing the parasitic globalists running the USSA will allow is for a state-level split to morph into a national secession movement. They may be evil, corrupt, and degenerate....but they KNOW allowing secession is tantamount to suicide, as they will no longer have a productive sector of society to steal from and live off of. Not to mention help support the rapidly-growing voter bloc of dependents, illegals, etc....who will stay docile and compliant, as long as the free shit keeps coming.

It's actually rather comical. You would think 'progressive leftist liberals' would literally JUMP at the chance to finally rid themselves of those backward, inbred, hillbilly rednecks and their barbaric guns, religion, and pickup trucks. Yet amazingly, these same 'progressives' are not only against such a split, but willing to enforce it with government guns.....you know the same guns they don't want YOU to have.

Anonymous geoff October 11, 2013 7:23 AM  

what real difference does it make for a state to split up while the federal behemoth still lives on?

Anonymous Roundtine October 11, 2013 7:25 AM  

The thing is, allowing states to reform would dull the secession movement because it is ultimately a local issue. If you let them secede and form new states, you suck the energy out of the secession movement and people spend time on building a new state government. If you don't allow it, then they start saying the system is too rigid and maybe we should just quit it. That's when the Vermont communists will find common ground with Southern Nationalists and Idaho separatists.

Anonymous RedJack October 11, 2013 7:35 AM  

It is, as mentioned above, a rural/city divide. I live in eastern Iowa, and work in the Quad Cities. Not a large metro area by any means (Farmer Tom is just west of my area). However, I live in a small town. The values and mores of the people here are much different than those just 20 miles away.

It isn't just race. There is a few fine black families that have moved in recently. They are all Army families, and are from the South. None want to live in that little Chicago that is the Quad Cities.

The divide is such that I almost can't understand my coworkers. They don't see why I choose to live "so far away" (20 minutes from work) while they go on and on about the benefits of living next to the bars and Walmart.

I can honestly relate more to the Hispanic family down the road who raise chickens and pigs for the farmers market (they are all here legally BTW) than I can the young 20 something white kids who want to live in downtown.

Anonymous Anonymous October 11, 2013 7:50 AM  

Continued union with DC is suicidal. Continued union with people who share so little of one's morality, history, and culture is unsustainable. As a Southerner, I'm thankful this is increasingly being perceived as not merely Southern "Neo-Confederate" thing (which, in principle, it never really was!).

Not sure how this ends, exactly, but I think things could get very messy for DC and its environs in the years to come.

Regards,
David Smith

Anonymous Sigyn October 11, 2013 8:01 AM  

And we are not even halfway through the Mother of all Contractions.

But, but Tad told me it was getting better!

Anonymous Old Coot October 11, 2013 8:05 AM  

Redjack, kids these days, I tell you...

Anonymous Shibes Meadow October 11, 2013 8:15 AM  

"No one with eyes to see and ears to hear believes that the federal entity is going to sit back and watch as the South rises again. To be a 'neo-Confederate' is already to be under suspicion by the federal entity and its various private watchdog groups. Should any serious Southern nationalist movement arise, the Disingenuous White Liberal (DWL) propaganda machine will go to full throttle, promoting Dixie nationalism from the status of mere fringe kookery to full-blown terrorism.

"Black Run America (BRA) is no more likely to let us walk away from their 'indissoluble Union' than the Communist Party was to let Ukraine and Belarus walk away from their 'unbreakable Union'.

"But the power of the Communist Party in the Soviet Union was not without limit. Once the inescapable collapse of the Soviet economic and political regime reduced the power of the Kremlin below the level necessary to keep the USSR together by force, Ukraine, Belarus, and the others simply presented their independence to Moscow as a fait accompli.

"The ability of the DWL power structure and its minority clients to dominate the United States is similarly limited. Once the inescapable collapse of the American economic and political regime reduces the power of BRA to the point where it can no longer hold the federal union together by force, the Confederate States of America, Texas, Hawaii, and the rest will simply walk away.

"Our job is to survive until then, to build our identity and our strength, and to establish provisional political and economic structures to be activated as BRA’s grip upon our throats is lost."

["Just Say Yes", The Oculus Report #49, 27 December 2012

Anonymous Weak October 11, 2013 8:17 AM  

I have heard repeatedly that red states rake in more federal loot than blue states. I assumed this was a progressive lie. Is it true? If so, then the secession movement would be odd since the red states are the parasites, not the blue as secessionists presume.

Anonymous harry12 October 11, 2013 8:28 AM  

Weak October 11, 2013 8:17 AM
I have heard repeatedly that red states rake in more federal loot than blue states. I assumed this was a progressive lie. Is it true? If so, then the secession movement would be odd since the red states are the parasites, not the blue as secessionists presume.


Commodity producers should give you some ideas.

Anonymous rienzi October 11, 2013 8:38 AM  

Weak said: I have heard repeatedly that red states rake in more federal loot than blue states. I assumed this was a progressive lie. Is it true? If so, then the secession movement would be odd since the red states are the parasites, not the blue as secessionists presume.

I wonder how much of that deficit is to fund federally mandated programs that are detested in those red states?

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein October 11, 2013 8:38 AM  

Redjack:
I can honestly relate more to the Hispanic family down the road who raise chickens and pigs for the farmers market (they are all here legally BTW) than I can the young 20 something white kids who want to live in downtown.

Here in SC, TV is inundated with ads for a dating site called Farmersonly.com.

Their tagline is "FarmersOnly.com, cause city folks just don't get it."

Anonymous Catan October 11, 2013 8:39 AM  

@Weak:

They only count some spending and not others. This is why you can mever trust their "statistics" without looking at the details.

For example, they surely don't count budgets for federal agencies or bureaucrat salaries in this horse manure. They don't count corportate welfare. Etc, etc.

Anonymous Athor Pel October 11, 2013 8:45 AM  

" Conrad The Crazed October 11, 2013 7:08 AM
...
The last thing the parasitic globalists running the USSA will allow is for a state-level split to morph into a national secession movement. They may be evil, corrupt, and degenerate....but they KNOW allowing secession is tantamount to suicide, as they will no longer have a productive sector of society to steal from and live off of. Not to mention help support the rapidly-growing voter bloc of dependents, illegals, etc....who will stay docile and compliant, as long as the free shit keeps coming."



The globalists are a big part of creating these secession movements. They have to destroy people's faith in their nations governments so they will be amenable to a global substitute. They want the national and regional governments to be corrupt and ineffectual so they will be all the more easy for globalists to subvert and coopt when the time comes.

The globalists want chaos, they want insurgency movements all over the place, they want food riots and bank runs. All the better to be able to offer stability once people get sick of the uncertainty. They want people begging for a LEADER.

You see, once people lose faith in one object they tend to desperately want to place that faith on some other object. But here's the rub, if the globalists do the job of killing people's faith in central government too well those same desperate people may become inoculated against the emotional need for big government permanently.

So the globalists need chaos but not for too long and they can never let people understand at a gut level that they can feed themselves, that they can clothe themselves, that they can take care of themselves, that they can govern themselves.

Government instituted by man is an idol. Because it is false it must be protected and promoted with lies, there is no other way. There is no truth that can sustain it, truth only serves to destroy it.






" It's actually rather comical. You would think 'progressive leftist liberals' would literally JUMP at the chance to finally rid themselves of those backward, inbred, hillbilly rednecks and their barbaric guns, religion, and pickup trucks. Yet amazingly, these same 'progressives' are not only against such a split, but willing to enforce it with government guns.....you know the same guns they don't want YOU to have."


Now you know how the south felt in the War of Northern Aggression.

Anonymous cheddarman October 11, 2013 8:54 AM  

I could see succession movements picking up a lot of steam If the U.S. dollar looses its world reserve currency status,

right now, too many people are depending on a handout from D.C. and are still invested in the current power structure

Anonymous Neo-Yankee October 11, 2013 9:10 AM  

The South Will Rise Again ... Jimmy Carter! Clinton!!!

Anonymous Neo-Yankee October 11, 2013 9:17 AM  

How Best to Secede from a State

Anonymous Stilicho October 11, 2013 9:25 AM  

It's actually rather comical. You would think 'progressive leftist liberals' would literally JUMP at the chance to finally rid themselves of those backward, inbred, hillbilly rednecks and their barbaric guns, religion, and pickup trucks. Yet amazingly, these same 'progressives' are not only against such a split, but willing to enforce it with government guns.....you know the same guns they don't want YOU to have.

Leftism/statism is a decidedly feminine ideology. Thus, it behooves you to ignore what they say and pay close attention to what they do.

Anonymous T October 11, 2013 9:27 AM  

Question for progressives:

If "Red States" and "Red Counties" are such mooches of Federal bucks, why is it your biggest fear that they succeed? Shouldn't you be cheering on these secession movements so you can have more federal money for your loyal Democratic voters/Welfare Moms?

Anonymous Starbuck October 11, 2013 9:30 AM  

It's actually rather comical. You would think 'progressive leftist liberals' would literally JUMP at the chance to finally rid themselves of those backward, inbred, hillbilly rednecks and their barbaric guns, religion, and pickup trucks. Yet amazingly, these same 'progressives' are not only against such a split, but willing to enforce it with government guns.....you know the same guns they don't want YOU to have. - Conrad The Crazed


You're right, it is humurous. However, I think the people with a liberal slant tend to view the numbers they have in a large city as power. Where the government knows and we know they are just votes that are bought with welfare and free goodies. These same people will become cannon fodder when the government makes their move for total domination. Sad really, but sad in a funny way.

Funny like watching a bunny rabbit look both ways on a street only to get hit when 90% accross the road by a speeding truck.

Anonymous Steveo October 11, 2013 9:33 AM  

I love the smell of irreconcilable differences in the morning - it smells like freeeeedddddooommmmm.

...to mix movie metaphors.

Blogger IM2L844 October 11, 2013 9:39 AM  

"And we are not even halfway through the Mother of all Contractions."

Both you and Nate have made it pretty clear what you guys expect and when, but it would be interesting to one day have a predictions focused thread where everybody who wants to can go on record with their timeline expectations. I can remember many commenter's positions, but only somewhat vaguely and I certainly wouldn't know where to look if I wanted to refresh my memory to see how their positions have evolved or even quote one of them. Besides, I can see it possibly being conducive to vigorous debate with lots of name calling fun.

Anonymous Golf Pro October 11, 2013 9:42 AM  

Well, the Maryland folks appear to at least have a Facebook page and their is word they are working to print bumper stickers....So, you know you've got a powerful movement afoot.

On the other hand, there is this:
"“If you have a long list of grievances, and it’s been going on for decades, and you can’t get it resolved, ultimately [secession] is what you have to do."

You don't actually "have to" secede. You could do what we do when we decide the leadership or Board at our Country Club isn't doing a good job: vote them out or go to another country club. You'll never see a golfer suggest, "Let's take the 17th and 18th hole and get the hell out of this club" because, well, Golfers understand something called reality.

Anonymous Eric C October 11, 2013 9:42 AM  

Funny like watching a bunny rabbit look both ways on a street only to get hit when 90% accross the road by a speeding truck.

You're twisted, Starbuck.

I like that...

Anonymous Brother Thomas October 11, 2013 9:43 AM  

The struggle must be pursued in all its various forms.

Anonymous T October 11, 2013 9:47 AM  

"Well, the Maryland folks appear to at least have a Facebook page and their is word they are working to print bumper stickers....So, you know you've got a powerful movement afoot."

Why so scared, Tad?

Anonymous T October 11, 2013 9:50 AM  

I think gay Tad is really freaked by this. It's rather fun to watch him meltdown.

Anonymous Stilicho October 11, 2013 9:57 AM  

Well, Taddy the Caddy does have a literally unhealthy obsession with observing other men's balls. It's bound to affect the cyberspace fartgasms he regards as commentary.

Anonymous FrankNorman October 11, 2013 9:57 AM  

Weak October 11, 2013 8:17 AM

I have heard repeatedly that red states rake in more federal loot than blue states. I assumed this was a progressive lie. Is it true? If so, then the secession movement would be odd since the red states are the parasites, not the blue as secessionists presume.


Not that I know much about the situation, but the situation you describe could be construed as meaning that the Republicans are more successful at bringing home the pork - ie, effectively representing the interests of their constituents, than the Democrats.

Anonymous Daniel October 11, 2013 9:59 AM  

Maine is an interesting one. It was basically encouraged by the Union empire out of the Missouri Compromise, which basically said, as new states are added to the union, you had to do it in twos - one slave state for each free state (and vice versa) - to keep that equilibrium at 15 free - 15 slave, they made Maine out of Massachusetts. Now, Mainers had several reasons for wanting to secede from Mass. (in part because it was already physically separate anyhow, and in part because Massachusetts politicians were dictatorial little jackasses), but it was under the auspices of federal blessing and federal equality that Maine was made as a way to keep the peace, keep the law, and prevent a civil war with the south.

What I'm saying is that there is a case to be made that secession within the Federal system in that case possibly delayed the civil conflict for 45 years. I actually believe the opposite: that the Missouri compromise was part of the problem: the North wanted the slave labor for industrialization - they just wanted them as minimal wage earners, so that they didn't have to bother with the greater expense of slavery. The anti-libertarian principle of equality (one slave - one free) ended up forcing a regional wedge over a slave - industrial labor bubble.

So...when the King Cotton bubble expanded to the breaking point in the South (wastefully converting that great land into a monoculture) just as northern industrialization was hitting a labor shortage, the Missouri Compromise told the Industrial Imperialists exactly who to shoot at.

Even with the Compromise, war wasn't inevitable - just way easier and more tempting. Whoa - off track - the point is that secession within the union is something that can under the right circumstances, provide what seems to be a short-term win-win.

On the other hand, Lando Calrissian just made a deal that'll keep the Empire out of here forever...

Anonymous Crispy October 11, 2013 10:06 AM  

Interestingly, some states are being allowed by the feds to fund the national parks in their borders.

I wonder if the feds are afraid that citizens will find out how little they need big government: citizens are stepping up to provide death benefits to soldiers' families, money to Head Start, and even mow the grass by the monuments.

Some EPA committee charged with preventing the next West, Texas disaster is no longer funded. Boo hoo! Don't the industries themselves have an even more direct interest in preventing their plants from blowing up?

Anonymous fnn October 11, 2013 10:08 AM  

The only way the DC-Hollywood-Wall Street regime will make any concessions to the kulaks:

here, here and here.

Blogger James Dixon October 11, 2013 10:23 AM  

> It is, as mentioned above, a rural/city divide.

Yes, it is. So maybe it's time for rural folks to start limiting their food shipments to the cities and only grow enough to support local communities?

Anonymous Huckleberry - est. 1977 October 11, 2013 10:24 AM  

You could do what we do when we decide the leadership or Board at our Country Club isn't doing a good job: vote them out or go to another country club. You'll never see a golfer suggest, "Let's take the 17th and 18th hole and get the hell out of this club" because, well, Golfers understand something called reality

Aww, Golf Pro is using a quirky analogy culled from his experience manning the counter at the Pro Shop for the PAR 3 down by wash, where he's keenly observed the machinations of the PAR 3's management structure, and is trying to apply it to the current conversation.
It's cute, like a puppy defecating on the floor, a foot away from the newspaper, wagging his tail at you because he almost made it...

Anonymous The other skeptic October 11, 2013 10:27 AM  

The ultimate secession movement will be fought with unimaginable savagery by the FEDs and blacks will support the FEDs because they get too much free stuff from the productive people in that society.

Anonymous tehstoopidhurts October 11, 2013 10:28 AM  

It's cute, like a puppy defecating on the floor, a foot away from the newspaper, wagging his tail at you because he almost made it...

And sadly, reTad won't realize your analogy is orders of magnitude better than his last one.

Blogger James Dixon October 11, 2013 10:29 AM  

> The ultimate secession movement will be fought with unimaginable savagery by the FEDs ,,,

Only unimaginable to people who don't know the history of the first one.

But this time, the secessionists will fight back the same way.

Anonymous Bob October 11, 2013 10:39 AM  

Sez p-dawg: "The Republic of Texas shall rise again!"

At which time a hell of a lot of wetbacks will escorted back across the river.

I wonder how many people actually think that is just a joke.

Anonymous The other skeptic October 11, 2013 10:40 AM  

On the other hand, Lando Calrissian just made a deal that'll keep the Empire out of here forever...

You mean "Keep giving people of color lots of shit that productive people make so they will keep voting for the Empire and we will stay out of what little of the rest of your business there is"?

Blogger James Dixon October 11, 2013 10:49 AM  

> I think gay Tad is really freaked by this.

Yeah, anytime secession comes up Tad has to show up to tell us that in spite of our personal observations, the sky is not in fact blue and water is not in fact wet.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 October 11, 2013 10:51 AM  

You don't actually "have to" secede. You could do what we do when we decide the leadership or Board at our Country Club isn't doing a good job: vote them out or go to another country club.

Except when your vote doesn't count and there is only country club available.

Anonymous YIH October 11, 2013 10:55 AM  

Sigyn October 11, 2013 8:01 AM
And we are not even halfway through the Mother of all Contractions.

But, but Tad told me it was getting better!
See what you get for mentioning Tad?
Shame on you!

Anonymous T October 11, 2013 10:55 AM  

“Everything in the country club, nothing outside the country club, nothing against the country club,” declares the fag.

Anonymous Noah B. October 11, 2013 11:12 AM  

"...Golfers understand something called reality."

Says the guy who uses hemorrhoid cream for toothpaste.

Anonymous dh October 11, 2013 11:38 AM  

Yes, it is. So maybe it's time for rural folks to start limiting their food shipments to the cities and only grow enough to support local communities?

Unfortunately for the rural folks, you consistently supported fake conservatives, who have sold out your interests in return for giving you subsidies that distort the market and affect what you grow. Meanwhile, the same conservatives have dropped their pants for huge farming operations to put the squeeze on smaller or family operations.

So, the rural folks will have little say over it. Instead, it's all up to the big companies. But don't worry maybe they will stand up the government.. this time.

Anonymous conern trollin October 11, 2013 11:40 AM  

Unfortunately for the rural folks, you consistently supported fake conservatives... so just bow down and submit, slaves.

Anonymous Sigyn October 11, 2013 11:46 AM  

You don't actually "have to" secede. You could do what we do when we decide the leadership or Board at our Country Club isn't doing a good job: vote them out or go to another country club.

"Do you hear me, you peasants? Voting is your only option, and never mind that the candidates all pretty much are indistinguishable; that they got elected only proves you wanted what they're doing. Now get back into the cotton fields and PICK, damn you. I don't have any more time to waste on you; I have to go file in a court to overturn the law you all voted to pass that says I can't marry my boyfriend."

Anonymous dh October 11, 2013 11:46 AM  

Unfortunately for the rural folks, you consistently supported fake conservatives... so just bow down and submit, slaves.

It's going to be that much harder since they have devauled their way of life in return for handouts.

Anonymous Sigyn October 11, 2013 11:48 AM  

In fact, Tad's spiel reminds me of the guys who offer you your choice of where to put the bullet--in your head or in your chest--and then claim that proves you always wanted to die, so it wasn't really murder, it was assisted suicide.

Anonymous conern trollin October 11, 2013 11:50 AM  

"It's going to be that much harder since they have devauled their way of life in return for handouts."

Then you as a liberal are supporting their secession efforts, correct? You support tossing the rural tea-tard mooches out on their own, to fend for themselves, right? You're here to help them, not quaking in your boots they're going Galt, is that correct?

Anonymous DonReynolds October 11, 2013 11:51 AM  

"And there is precedent. Four of our 50 states – Maine, Vermont, Kentucky, West Virginia – were born out of other states."

Excuse me. Tennessee was part of North Carolina before it became a state.

Family history still repeats the story that we came to North Carolina from Ireland. Technically, that is correct. When they came to Copper Hill (near Knoxville) it was still North Carolina but no, they never lived anywhere that is the North Carolina of today. From there, they used the Tennessee River superhighway to spread west, including the first governor of Illinois, "Old Ranger".

Anonymous Noah B. October 11, 2013 11:55 AM  

"So, the rural folks will have little say over it."

The people who produce the food and raw materials the country needs to survive -- whether or not they own the means of production -- have far more power than those who consume it. It's no accident that most successful guerrilla campaigns begin in rural areas.

Blogger Logos October 11, 2013 12:11 PM  

I notice several people expressing doubts about secession because small, local governments are just as corrupt (if not more so) than large, central ones. That may be true, but it's far better to have a large number of small governments than a small number of large ones. Smaller governments are weaker, and multiple governments compete with and offset one another, giving us more options to vote with our dollars and our feet. If we can't get rid of government outright, the next best thing is to multiply governments and thereby restrain them. Internal restraints never work; only external restraints do.

Anonymous hardscrabble farmer October 11, 2013 12:24 PM  

"I have heard repeatedly that red states rake in more federal loot than blue states."

The top six states in Federal funding per capita went democratic in the last three Presidential election cycles. Not one went Red.

I am certain that can be twisted to come out the exact opposite by someone on HuffPo/Gawker/Mother Jones/MSNBC

Anonymous DonReynolds October 11, 2013 12:28 PM  

Logos...."Smaller governments are weaker, and multiple governments compete with and offset one another, giving us more options to vote with our dollars and our feet."

The independence of India (and Pakistan) is a very good example of all the arguments for and against secession. I believe Mahatma Gandhi put it well, after he was told by the British that the Indians are not competent enough to run their own country. He said that people everywhere in the world would prefer their own incompetent government over rule by a foreign competent government.

As the divide between Red States and Blue States becomes sharper and more general, it soon becomes obvious that we are different people.....one foreign to the other......and we are honestly incompatible.

Secession is like divorce. It can be amicable, or at least civil, and uncontested, based on agreement. Or it can be even more ugly and nasty than anyone, I hope, can ever imagine. In the end, the divorce will be granted. If not now, then later. There is no possibility of reconciliation since neither is willing to abandon their own principles and values. Divorce is the only agreement that we can have going forward.

Anonymous ZhukovG October 11, 2013 12:30 PM  

We seem to be in a similar situation to the US in the 1850s. We have different factions within the country that actively hate and/or feel threatened by each other to such an extent that war (mass murder, ethnic cleansing), becomes thinkable. From here it requires very little, a galvanizing event (Raid on Harper’s Ferry, Morrill Tariff), to push the thinkable to the inevitable.

If this happens, and the wise will pray it doesn’t, it will make the horrors of the 1860s seem a civilized debate, by comparison. Think the dissolution of Yugoslavia on a continental scale.

Anonymous Just Mark October 11, 2013 12:39 PM  

Here in VA, I'm pretty fed up with the whole Richmond Washington Corridor and with the DC burbs dictating policy for the whole state. I wonder if it wouldn't be better if the western counties of VA from Culpepper south on the I29 corridor and Winchester south on the I81 corridor wouldn't be better served by forming a new state ourselves. Perhaps call it Shenandoah or Piedmont. Capitol in Staunton yah, that would work.

Anonymous cheddarman October 11, 2013 12:50 PM  

As God is just, i don't believe he is going to allow us to continue to rip off the rest of the world with our monetary games. He is, sooner or later, going to let the dollar go down the crapper. I don't know what comes after that. I don't expect it to be civil, or pretty.

Anonymous Brother Thomas October 11, 2013 12:51 PM  

@ZhukovG October 11, 2013 12:30 PM

I don't think it will be nearly as bad as the War Between the States. At that time the empire was in ascendance. The empire is now in decline. I think the Soviet scenario more likely.

Anonymous Porky October 11, 2013 1:02 PM  


but it would be interesting to one day have a predictions focused thread where everybody who wants to can go on record with their timeline expectations.


Great idea.

Anonymous Eddie Willers October 11, 2013 1:10 PM  

Who is John Galt?

Anonymous Laguna Beach Fogey October 11, 2013 1:13 PM  

Every time I've brought up the idea of Orange County seceding from California, I've been denounced as a "traitor". And this is amongst a wealthy white conservative Republican audience.

As I've said before, civil war is inevitable. The mutual hatred is too strong, the grievances too overwhelming, and the guns too numerous for break-up to be anything but violent and bloody.

Hopefully the experience will produce a new generation of heroes for our side.

Anonymous Sigyn October 11, 2013 1:15 PM  

Hopefully the experience will produce a new generation of heroes for our side.

"Our"?

Anonymous T October 11, 2013 1:21 PM  

"Hopefully the experience will produce a new generation of heroes for our side.

I would guess than 95% of the time, a civil war or revolution leads to Dictatorship.

Anonymous Sigyn October 11, 2013 1:23 PM  

I would guess than 95% of the time, a civil war or revolution leads to Dictatorship.

In what kind of timeframe?

Anonymous T October 11, 2013 1:27 PM  

"In what kind of timeframe?"

OK, let's say the last 200 years.

Anonymous dh October 11, 2013 1:33 PM  

The top six states in Federal funding per capita went democratic in the last three Presidential election cycles. Not one went Red.

Is that counting the ratio of taxes to outlays?

Anonymous ZhukovG October 11, 2013 1:37 PM  

@Brother Thomas

The Soviet Union break up was relatively peaceful for several reasons:

1. Very few in 1991 retained any serious loyalty to the Soviet establishment. Hardly anyone, including the KGB, were willing to fight to preserve it.

2. For the most part the Soviet Union was easily devisable by ethnic and cultural population groups.

3. Each major ethnic and cultural faction was allied, if you will, in their contempt for the old Soviet establishment. This allowed each faction to focus their anger on a relatively small group that was seen as more pathetic than dangerous.

None of the above are true of the US, but I would welcome your reasons for optimism.

Anonymous Sigyn October 11, 2013 1:40 PM  

@ T,

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. I mean, what's the longest time-to-tyrant from revolution you'd establish? Direct moves from old government to dictatorship, or do you allow for transitional governments in between?

Anonymous RedJack October 11, 2013 1:46 PM  

dh:
You are more right than you know. I have seen it first hand.

The funny thing is that the big corp farms are in trouble. They have driven out their own management and work force.

Anonymous T October 11, 2013 1:49 PM  

Sigyn: On the upside, we'll take Chile and Spain. The average of those two from dictatorship to (relatively) limited government was about 30 years. On the downside, take the downfall of the Czar to the fall of the Soviet Union. So best case scenario would be a generation of dictatorship. Worst case could be several lifetimes. I would say history leans toward the worst-case. Not that I support the progressives or U.S. gov't in any way. Just saying history tells the choice is between shit and deeper-shit.

OpenID cailcorishev October 11, 2013 1:57 PM  

The people who produce the food and raw materials the country needs to survive -- whether or not they own the means of production -- have far more power than those who consume it.

That's true, but living in the country myself, I wonder what it will take to get rural people to exercise that power. If you look at county-by-county breakdowns of recent elections, you can see that rural people consistently vote against the more liberal candidate. And time after time, the cities outvote us, giving us liberal Democrats and Republicans, plus policies like gay marriage that we would have thought impossible, and unnecessary wars that take a disproportionately high number of country boys' lives.

But do we ever rise up? Heck, we rarely even complain. We laugh and point at the city slickers and their crazy habits and libertine lifestyles -- and then we go back to watching TV so they can convince us their lifestyles aren't so bad. We're always a decade or two behind the city fashions, but always absorbing them eventually. It's most obvious in the schools: public school teachers here still had paddles hanging on the wall well into the 1980s. But you can bet they're gone now.

Living in the country and dealing with the realities of nature makes you more resistant to liberal stupidity, but not immune.

Blogger Eric October 11, 2013 2:22 PM  

As the divide between Red States and Blue States becomes sharper and more general, it soon becomes obvious that we are different people.....one foreign to the other......and we are honestly incompatible.

But that isn't the real divide. The real divide is urban vs rural. If you look at the election results from the last few cycles you see even states considered solid red or blue are still close to split between parties. It's only when you look at district maps you see high density spots of blue surrounded by a sea of red.

I can see parts of states breaking off to form new ones or merge with neighbors, but we're not going to see a replay of 1861. 55% in favor just isn't enough.

Blogger Eric October 11, 2013 2:24 PM  

The people who produce the food and raw materials the country needs to survive -- whether or not they own the means of production -- have far more power than those who consume it.

Nonsense. If a movement to deny food to urban areas actually gained traction you'd quickly find federal troops taking it apart at gunpoint. Farmers are, what, 2% of the population?

Anonymous DonReynolds October 11, 2013 2:33 PM  

T....."I would guess than 95% of the time, a civil war or revolution leads to Dictatorship."

An interesting observation. What does it lead to, when it is a revolution against an existing Dictatorship? Do you have any examples?

Anonymous cheddarman October 11, 2013 2:44 PM  

It is my understanding that during the breakup of the former USSR, there was some ethinc cleansing that was largely unreported by the media. The soviets had this habit of moving potentially trouble causing groups of people to other parts of the country, where they would be a minority and unable to cause trouble, more dependent upon the central government for survival.

i wonder what form this will take in the Us when the break up begins.

Sincerely

cheddarman

Anonymous Brother Thomas October 11, 2013 2:47 PM  

@ZhukovG October 11, 2013 1:37 PM @Brother Thomas

"The Soviet Union break up was relatively peaceful for several reasons:

1. Very few in 1991 retained any serious loyalty to the Soviet establishment. Hardly anyone, including the KGB, were willing to fight to preserve it.

2. For the most part the Soviet Union was easily devisable by ethnic and cultural population groups.

3. Each major ethnic and cultural faction was allied, if you will, in their contempt for the old Soviet establishment. This allowed each faction to focus their anger on a relatively small group that was seen as more pathetic than dangerous."

The War Between the States was more horribly brutal than you may know. The organized state militias that existed then, do not exist today.

Regarding your three points above, within the US, all of these exist in varying degrees today. And all will exist to a greater degree in the future.


Anonymous hardscrabble farmer October 11, 2013 2:53 PM  

Someone wrote-

"I have heard repeatedly that red states rake in more federal loot than blue states."

I responded to the cannard with a fact-

The top six states in Federal funding per capita went democratic in the last three Presidential election cycles. Not one went Red.

I then posited that a leftist/progressive would distort some point of fact or data set to make the cannard seem true even though it is a fact that Federal spending, per capita, is highest in those states who deliver a Democratic victory, election cycle after election cycle.

And you respond, as if on cue and as if I possessed some form or precognition with the challenge-

"Is that counting the ratio of taxes to outlays?"

You may skew data sets any way you like, be they based on race, gender, taxes or outlays, but the facts are the facts.

OpenID cailcorishev October 11, 2013 2:53 PM  

2-3% of the population is directly involved in agriculture, either owning a farm or working on one. That doesn't count all the people who make their living from farming indirectly: seed and feed salesmen, delivery drivers, tractor mechanics, and so on. They outnumber the actual farmers, and they're all pretty rural-minded.

Anyway, according to Wikipedia, there are 1.2M farmers, ranchers, and farm managers in the US, and another 800K who work directly for them. There are 1.5M active duty military, but 1/3 of those are overseas, leaving fewer than a million stateside. 13% of them are female, and while I couldn't find stats on women farmers (the government agencies still have their web sites down to try to annoy us into supporting Obama's debt plans, even though it costs exactly zero dollars to leave a web site running once it's in place), I'd give the farmers the edge there.

So if farmers (not to mention millions of other rural people) decided to cut off the cities for a while, the feds would have to bring all the soldiers home just to have nearly even numbers, and then they'd have to send the entire active duty military into the heartland, complete with tanks and bombers to give them a chance in unfamiliar enemy territory. Keep in mind, too, that a disproportionate number of soldiers come from those rural areas. I don't think even Obama is that stupid.

Of course, that'll never happen, because we're just too nice in the country.

Anonymous Noah B. October 11, 2013 3:11 PM  

"If a movement to deny food to urban areas actually gained traction you'd quickly find federal troops taking it apart at gunpoint. Farmers are, what, 2% of the population?"

Whatever, Sparky. If farmers go on strike, federal troops aren't going to be able to pick up the slack. What are they, .02% of the population?

Anonymous Noah B. October 11, 2013 3:19 PM  

"Of course, that'll never happen, because we're just too nice in the country."

I don't think it will happen either. But the potential is certainly there.

Anonymous ZhukovG October 11, 2013 3:23 PM  

@Brother Thomas

As a descendent of Confederates, I am well aware of the brutality of the War for Southern Independence. However, the damage and carnage was mostly restricted to areas of the southern states. The vast majority of what was, before 1861, the United States was untouched. War of Secession II will most likely not be so constrained.

As regards my points on the Soviet Union break up vs. the US.

1. Tens of millions of persons in the US have a vested interest in the continuation of the established order. Even if the state were unable to make its payments to them, their establishment leaders are quite deft at turning their anger against a hated faction.

2. With few exceptions the states of the Union are a polyglot of ethnic, cultural, religious and political adversaries. The only way this is likely to sort itself out is with a great deal of human suffering.

3. This is self evidently false for the US, to anyone who pays attention.

Now, I hope your right and I am completely wrong. But I see too much of the, “I’ll shoot me a couple Yankees and be home for dinner”, attitude among those who seem to look forward to the potential mess that is approaching.

Anonymous cheddarman October 11, 2013 3:24 PM  

So if farmers (not to mention millions of other rural people) decided to cut off the cities for a while, the feds would have to bring all the soldiers home just to have nearly even numbers, and then they'd have to send the entire active duty military into the heartland, complete with tanks and bombers to give them a chance in unfamiliar enemy territory. Keep in mind, too, that a disproportionate number of soldiers come from those rural areas. I don't think even Obama is that stupid.

Of course, that'll never happen, because we're just too nice in the country. - Calorishev and Noah B.


It could happen, if the dollar becomes worthless, or the govt dictates prices for commodities. What are farmers going to take for their foodstuffs? certainly not worthless paper

Anonymous ENthePeasant October 11, 2013 3:31 PM  

"The Soviet Union break up was relatively peaceful for several reasons:"

Georgi, that's dead on. The first time I saw this subject breached in a serious manner was in Van Creveld's, "The Rise and Decline of the State." Admittedly it scared me a bit at the time (late 1990s) but reading the book gave me a pretty clear idea how this was going to happen and mostly it will be through economic destruction of the larger state, leaving said state in control of very little, much like the Hapsburg's after WW I. And those were some very good days for the American State. It was hard to believe, but it's all happened pretty much as he predicted. Bill Lind has stated over and over that it would eventually end up with Washington being a city state without much true power, although edicts would be issued, and state functions would go on for years as if the federal government was still powerful. The kind of man who would bring this about is a lover of the Federal state and it's government by whim. A petty man like Obama fits the bill nicely. It's gonna get exciting. I have no idea how it all ends, except it's apparent to me that a breakup is coming.

Anonymous ENthePeasant October 11, 2013 4:01 PM  

I don't come off as a starry eyed unicorn lover, but it seems to me that if the all powerful Soviet state can break up peacefully it's even more likely here. One of the things feminist philosophy has encouraged is state power (GUNS) used for their own ideological reasons. But those who provide the power are not true believers and Liberals are most decidedly against getting their own hands dirty from my experience. They will need to raise their own forces to oppose any kind of breakup. Mockery and disdain, their usual stock in trade, will only get them slapped in the face and once that starts, it's over. When the state goes way so does the guns and I'm still connected enough to believe that the army and local police forces will not support the statists who demand they incarcerate and kill their own people. The US is held together so far because of a belief in the rule of law by those who enforce it. Many I know are already talking about the rule of law going away with our president and his minions. The spells disaster for our would be masters.

Anonymous ENthePeasant October 11, 2013 4:05 PM  

"I notice several people expressing doubts about secession because small, local governments are just as corrupt (if not more so) than large, central ones."

My experience with this is the liberal state of California has allowed the more egregious corrupt practices to go on. Take away the larger Statist protections and local government becomes doable.

Anonymous Difster October 11, 2013 4:11 PM  

Texas!

If any state has any chance at successfully seceding, it's Texas.

But first, we're going to have to kill all the hipsters in Austin. Don't worry about that though, there will be plenty of volunteers.

Anonymous DonReynolds October 11, 2013 4:14 PM  

Eric......"But that isn't the real divide. The real divide is urban vs rural. If you look at the election results from the last few cycles you see even states considered solid red or blue are still close to split between parties. It's only when you look at district maps you see high density spots of blue surrounded by a sea of red."

I am afraid you might be mistaken, Eric. This is the polite and whitewashed version of the divide as a rural-urban conflict, which is part of the history of this country from the beginning. The islands of blue you see in an ocean of red counties is an accurate reflection of the ethnic vote (black and hispanic) in those regions. This is perfectly reflected in Texas along the Rio Grande Valley, where there are no major cities, and in the urban centers.

Eric....."I can see parts of states breaking off to form new ones or merge with neighbors, but we're not going to see a replay of 1861. 55% in favor just isn't enough."

Under the present Constitution, no state can be created of an existing state without the approval of that state legislature. (West Virginia being a glaring violation of that provision. No, the Virginia Assembly never agreed to West Virginia.)

I gently disagree that 55 percent is insufficient. In the earliest popular voting for secession, Georgia only managed 57.5 percent in favor of secession on January 2nd, 1861, and in Tennessee the vote for secession FAILED at 45.4 percent on February 9th. After the attack on Ft. Sumter, the Lincoln rejection of the Crittenden compromise, and Lincoln's call for 75,000 troops to invade the South, the popular voting shifted profoundly in favor of secession. Texas voters approved secession by 77.3 percent on February 23rd, Virginia by 77.9 percent on May 23rd, and Tennessee by 69.6 percent on June 8th. We would very likely see a similar pattern today.....with lukewarm support for secession brought to a boil by the Federal over-reaction and refusal to negotiate. (Sound familiar?)

Tennessee, the last of the Confederate states, is an interesting study because the voters consistently rejected calls for a secession convention and was the only state to hold two popular votes.

http://users.wfu.edu/heckeljc/papers/published/CPE2007.pdf

Anonymous DonReynolds October 11, 2013 4:24 PM  

cheddarman...."It could happen, if the dollar becomes worthless, or the govt dictates prices for commodities. What are farmers going to take for their foodstuffs? certainly not worthless paper"

It has been tried before.....after the October Revolution by the relatively affluent Kulaks in Russia. They were declared class enemies of the poor and the cause of famine. Stalin liquidated tens of millions of them when the collectivized their farms during 1929-33. Good idea but bad end result. I do not doubt the same thing would happen here.

Anonymous Athor Pel October 11, 2013 4:31 PM  

Read something interesting the other day.

Jeremiah 50 (ASV)

"35 A sword is upon the Chaldeans, saith Jehovah, and upon the inhabitants of Babylon, and upon her princes, and upon her wise men.

36 A sword is upon the boasters, and they shall become fools; a sword is upon her mighty men, and they shall be dismayed.

37 A sword is upon their horses, and upon their chariots, and upon all the mingled people that are in the midst of her; and they shall become as women: a sword is upon her treasures, and they shall be robbed."

Emphasis mine.


It appears that this mingling of people is something that has been a characteristic of Babylonian culture since the beginning. Coupled with Revelation 18 where we find the kings, merchants and sea captains of the earth stand in awe at Babylon's destruction and it looks increasingly like America is identified in scripture, not by name but by character.

Blogger Eric October 11, 2013 4:33 PM  

I am afraid you might be mistaken, Eric. This is the polite and whitewashed version of the divide as a rural-urban conflict, which is part of the history of this country from the beginning. The islands of blue you see in an ocean of red counties is an accurate reflection of the ethnic vote (black and hispanic) in those regions. This is perfectly reflected in Texas along the Rio Grande Valley, where there are no major cities, and in the urban centers.

There aren't enough minorities to win elections like that. I live in the SF bay area, and black people have been pushed out of the city in recent years by crazy housing costs (they're down to 6%). It's a city full of whites and asians. Yet SF routinely sends people like Barbara Lee and Nancy Pelosi to Washington.

Blogger James Dixon October 11, 2013 4:42 PM  

> I wonder if it wouldn't be better if the western counties of VA from Culpepper south on the I29 corridor and Winchester south on the I81 corridor wouldn't be better served by forming a new state ourselves. Perhaps call it Shenandoah or Piedmont. Capitol in Staunton yah, that would work.

They could simply join West Virginia.

> If a movement to deny food to urban areas actually gained traction you'd quickly find federal troops taking it apart at gunpoint.

Take what apart? If there's limited amounts of food being grown, seizing it still won't feed the cities. Are you going to force the farmers to grow food at gunpoint? That's sure to work well.

> But I see too much of the, “I’ll shoot me a couple Yankees and be home for dinner”, attitude among those who seem to look forward to the potential mess that is approaching.

You see what you want to see. Most of us here know better.

> No, the Virginia Assembly never agreed to West Virginia.

Uhm, the Assembly in West Virginia was recognized as the rightful government of Virginia, so they did agree. Of course, it should have remained that way and no separate state should have been formed.



Anonymous DonReynolds October 11, 2013 4:44 PM  

ENthepeasant......."They will need to raise their own forces to oppose any kind of breakup."

They will use the same forces against us that they used the last time......foreign immigrants and blacks. During the last Civil War, a good many of the regiments were either Irish Catholics or German-speaking, mostly fresh off the boat. (Today, they would be hispanic immigrants. Why do you suppose the Liberals are so keen on them serving in the US military?) Of course, there would be black regiments too, who proved to be particularly brutal, led by white Liberal officers. Some things never change, particularly if they worked well in the past.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza October 11, 2013 4:46 PM  

Maybe for good, maybe for bad. With the quality of leadership, I would suggest they just keep taking their medication and collect their checks.

Anonymous DonReynolds October 11, 2013 5:04 PM  

> No, the Virginia Assembly never agreed to West Virginia.

James Dixon......"Uhm, the Assembly in West Virginia was recognized as the rightful government of Virginia, so they did agree. Of course, it should have remained that way and no separate state should have been formed."

This was a common device used by the Lincoln Administration to pretend that secession had never occurred......simply ignore the historic and existing state government in favor of a new state government created out of whole cloth by Pro-Unionists and quickly recognized as the state government by the Federals. This device was also used in Arkansas and Missouri. In these states, the existing state government was forced out of the state capital by Union bayonets. The Missouri state government spent the rest of the war in exile at Marshall, Texas. In Arkansas, it moved to Washington, Arkansas.

Sorry pal, the Virginia Assembly is still (today) the state legislature of Virginia and they never approved or agreed to the creation of West Virginia (or Kanawha, if you prefer the original name). After the fall of Richmond, it moved to Lynchburg. And yes, even though secession "never occurred", according to the Lincoln Administration, the Commonwealth of Virginia was readmitted as a state in 1870.

Blogger Eric October 11, 2013 5:06 PM  

Take what apart? If there's limited amounts of food being grown, seizing it still won't feed the cities. Are you going to force the farmers to grow food at gunpoint? That's sure to work well.

Take the movement apart. And yeah, if it comes down to it farmers will be ordered, at gunpoint, to grow food. There isn't a state on the face of the earth that's going to allow farmers to go on strike.

Anonymous Noah B. October 11, 2013 5:21 PM  

More realistically, what would happen is that the feds would dangle as much cash in front of farmers as it took to get them to stop. That will work as long as the printed money will buy stuff. When it won't, the feds won't be able to mount a military campaign to steal from farmers, either.

Alternatively, there's the Zimbabwe model in which the government seizes land and gives it to cronies. But that never seems to work out well.

Anonymous Noah B. October 11, 2013 5:24 PM  

"And yeah, if it comes down to it farmers will be ordered, at gunpoint, to grow food."

Can't. Scrap thieves cut off the seed drill hookup. I'll be happy to plant as soon as I get a new one.

Anonymous Noah B. October 11, 2013 5:31 PM  

And Eric, again, there's a reason why successful guerrilla campaigns tend to begin in rural areas. That's because it's next to impossible for governments to effectively control rural areas.

Anonymous Concerned Rabbit Hunter October 11, 2013 5:38 PM  

"Can't. Scrap thieves cut off the seed drill hookup. I'll be happy to plant as soon as I get a new one."

They could always transfer the land to the Democratic voters who voted for them :-)

Blogger James Dixon October 11, 2013 5:43 PM  

> Sorry pal, the Virginia Assembly is still (today) the state legislature of Virginia

When Virginia left the union, it was no longer the legislature representing Virginia in the United States. The legislature formed in the western counties which declined to secede was. What the legislature that seceded and was then in the Confederacy wanted or did was immaterial. Forming a separate state was still a stupid thing to do, but as the elected legislature of Virginia in the Unites States, they had a perfect right to do so.

> And yeah, if it comes down to it farmers will be ordered, at gunpoint, to grow food.

And that always works so well, doesn't it? Good luck feeding even half of the population on what that produces.

Blogger James Dixon October 11, 2013 5:44 PM  

> They could always transfer the land to the Democratic voters who voted for them :-)

That's the Zimbabwe model. It tends to work even less well than the work at gunpoint model.

Anonymous Concerned Rabbit Hunter October 11, 2013 5:49 PM  

"Good luck feeding even half of the population on what that produces."

Some are more worthy than others. Only the committed democratic voters deserve food when the evil reactionaries will no longer create the food we all deserve.

Anonymous Noah B. October 11, 2013 5:59 PM  

"Only the committed democratic voters deserve food when the evil reactionaries will no longer create the food we all deserve."

And when money will no longer buy food... that's a de facto economic collapse. At that point, everything shuts down.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey October 11, 2013 6:09 PM  

@T ~

"I would guess than 95% of the time, a civil war or revolution leads to Dictatorship."

You say that as if it is a bad thing. lol

Would an authoritarian regime run by *our* chaps be a bad thing?

I don't think so. I would welcome it. Hell, I would help run it.

After a conflict such a government is necessary to clean up the mess, shift populations, disappear dissenters, and get the country back on track, as it were.

The idea that after a revolution we're going to achieve a libertarian paradise of limited government is a pipe dream.

OpenID cailcorishev October 11, 2013 6:30 PM  

It could happen, if the dollar becomes worthless, or the govt dictates prices for commodities.

Government already does dictate the price of many commodities. There's a floor price on milk, for instance, so the feds buy up cheese (that's where "government cheese" comes from) when the price gets too low, to keep it above a certain level. Then they dump the cheese back on the market when the price rises, effectively creating a ceiling too. Almost every crop has some kind of price-affecting program. On the main commodities, the CBOT sets the price, which to a farmer out in the sticks might as well be the government -- it's a bunch of suits off in the city working under complex government regulations. A few farmers have started going local with their products, but most haul them to the elevator or terminal and take whatever the price was decided that day by a bunch of guys who have never seen the inside of a barn.

A decade or so ago, when the price of hogs fell to below $10 for a while -- at a time when $40 was considered break-even, so at $10 you were grossing 25% of cost -- some hog farmers went out of business. Some euthanized pigs to cut their losses. No one led a charge on Chicago or Smithfield with torches and pitchforks, as far as I ever heard. They couldn't even get the Pork Board's $1/hog advertising checkoff (which was obviously going smashingly, to generate those prices) made voluntary -- Bush's Sec. of Ag. threw out the vote. Farmers didn't go after her with pitchforks either.

Country people are just too nice. Now, if the feds were ever stupid enough to attack them, that'd be a different matter. They'll defend themselves. They won't go on the offensive, though.

Blogger Eric October 11, 2013 6:46 PM  

And Eric, again, there's a reason why successful guerrilla campaigns tend to begin in rural areas. That's because it's next to impossible for governments to effectively control rural areas.

Successful guerrilla campaigns begin in rural areas of agrarian societies, and even then hardly any guerrilla campaigns are actually successful. We do not have an agrarian society. There simply aren't enough farmers to oppose the will of the urban population in the US.

On top of that technology has shifted away from guerrillas in recent decades. With drones and IR you can't just run into the hills to escape the army any more. The most you could possibly do in the US is conduct a terror bombing campaign, and while something like that is really difficult for the government to deal with it's not very effective in advancing an agenda.

OpenID cailcorishev October 11, 2013 6:50 PM  

In the late days of the Soviet Union, an ag reporter went over and visited with some farmers over there, and I think some of them came over here to visit. He said they could understand the technology we were using -- it was better than theirs, but still understandable. But they couldn't imagine the idea that a guy could own his own land and make his own decisions about what to plant on it.

The feds and the big corporations like Monsanto are trying to put a stop to that crazy freedom of property stuff here too, but they haven't yet.

The other thing that came out of the USSR was that, if a guy's job was to drive a combine (harvester), and it broke, he just sat there and waited for the guy whose job it was to come fix it. It might have just been a belt slipped off a pulley, but it wasn't his job, so it didn't matter to him either way. On an American farm, at least before massive corporatization, the farmer would have jumped under the thing and started tearing into it, trying to get it going himself, because time is money and there's rain in the forecast and he needs to get paid for this harvest to pay his land bill.

It wouldn't take a strike to reduce productivity drastically; it would just take farmers deciding it's not worth working like a dog anymore, and approaching the job with the zeal of a Soviet worker -- or a US government paper-pusher, for that matter.

On top of that technology has shifted away from guerrillas in recent decades. With drones and IR you can't just run into the hills to escape the army any more.

It does seem like that would be true. And yet, governments have thought they had the upper hand through superior tech and firepower before, and been proven wrong. I wonder.

Anonymous ENthePeasant October 11, 2013 7:29 PM  

"They will use the same forces against us that they used the last time......foreign immigrants and blacks. During the last Civil War, a good many of the regiments were either Irish Catholics or German-speaking, mostly fresh off the boat."

Having spent so much time dealing with industrial production of war materials I'm loathe to give this as much credit as you do. The South was demographically destined to fail from the beginning (sorry Southrons, sue me). Couple demographics with the one trick pony of cotton and, other than uniforms (which did not include boots BTW), they did not have the means to successfully fight a stand up conventional war against the north. And don't get me started on naval forces, which a rebellion of the south with it's huge coastline, never seemed to strategically assess until it was far too late. I would also point out that there is a standing army of considerable size that would support the rebels. We can argue that last point but it sure appears to me that Obama and his minions are all to aware of that and trying to change the makeup of general officers and other ranks (means women) as fast as possible. Today the bitter clinger statists do not possess even a miniscule amount of industrial production needed to to fight a war. They would be forced to deal with China and China would want money which a failing US government is destroying on a daily basis. But obviously I'm speculating. Maybe Liberals would fight with no equipment, training, or good leadership. But I'm guessing they wouldn't fight for long. Control of the internet (which isn't all that important) would be impossible and other than Google I'm not aware of many strengths there. They also possess a demographic burden of silly old white women of no real value (other than being granted great power) who will find themselves dealing with reality by using their imbecilic opinions. One could get into a great deal of trouble by trying to use the War between the states as a model for what's happening now.

Anonymous Dr. Doom October 11, 2013 7:30 PM  

You are all missing the Big Picture! The NWO and the UN would like NOTHING BETTER than the United States to break up into smaller countries! It would be a HUGE MISTAKE for Whites to do this! The United States of America is a Superpower that other nations and especially the EUSSR is afraid of.
A smaller coalition of non-friendly states WOULD NOT BE A SUPERPOWER! It would be child's play for the NWO, UN and the EUSSR to take over the non-white portions of the Former United States! This would possible creat gaps between White Enclaves and give them a Strategic Foothold on North America that would not be easy to dislodge by smaller ethno-states!
Such a strategy plays right into their hands!

Anonymous Shibes Meadow October 11, 2013 7:32 PM  

@Laguna Beach Fogey October 11, 2013 6:09 PM:

Would an authoritarian regime run by *our* chaps be a bad thing?

No, it wouldn't. The idea that liberal government is somehow superior to authoritarian government is just another facet of the Revolutionary mindset. Traditional European government is authoritarian in nature but limited in scope. In general, this means that the government is secular in composition but sacred in constitution (i.e. its authority is founded upon God and His Church, not upon Rousseau and his church of the so-called general will). The Government is the organ by which the Chief of State fulfills his role as protector of the family, the Church, and the national patrimony (customs, culture, language, genetics, etc,) against any person of group who threatens them.

In our liberal, Revolutionary West, the State is ostensibly on the side of the People, representing their interests and defending them against exploiters. In reality, ithe Revolutionary State is a tool by which an ideological vanguard exploits the members of the traditional nation (i.e. those who are identified by a common language, faith, and ancestry) in order to channel their wealth to select victim groups (usually immigrant foreigners). These groups are then used as a hammer to smash the traditional nation and reduce all citizens to an egalitarian mass, a docile and deracinated herd which has no loyalty but to the State and which can then be used to build he revolutionary vanguard's earthly utopia.

What is needed is the rebirth of the traditional Western State in which the government assumes its traditional and Biblical role as the defender of the nation (again, those who are identified by a common language, faith, and ancestry) and drives out, imprisons, or kills any person or group of people who act contrary to its interests.

It is important to note that both types of State are controlled by elites. As traditionalists, we accept that elites exist and that inequality is the natural state of mankind. The difference between the two elites lies solely in their derivation of powers. In a traditional Western State, the government acts as a trustee of the divine authority, and is constrained by the Church (sometimes unsuccesfully) to govern in accord with God's law. In the secular, Revolutionary State, the members of the ideological elite consider themselves God, answerable to no one.

The idea that after a revolution we're going to achieve a libertarian paradise of limited government is a pipe dream.

A just, authoritarian government is possible only in a fundamentally Christian society. In such a society, custom and tradition, not positive law, governs most everyday activities, giving the State little presence in the lives of its citizens. Where God governs the people via well-informed consciences, little need for human government exists, and the State can concentrate on defending the borders and ferreting out spies, traitors, and fifth columnists.

Vivemos mejor con Franco. Spain has been "free" in the liberal sense since 1975 -- but is it a better, happier, more righteous country now than it was in the Bad Old Days of the Caudillo? Not in my opinion. Likewise Portugal. Was it better off as a poor country, where Salazar and the secret police were on the side of Church, marriage and family, or as a "rich" nation where the State is totally secular and protects the "right" of homosexuals to make a mockery of the sacrament of marriage? I say bring back Salazar.

A State governed in the Western, Christian tradition may indeed not be "free" in the decadent liberal sense, but it is free in all the ways that really matter.

Anonymous DonReynolds October 11, 2013 7:38 PM  

Eric....."On top of that technology has shifted away from guerrillas in recent decades. With drones and IR you can't just run into the hills to escape the army any more. The most you could possibly do in the US is conduct a terror bombing campaign, and while something like that is really difficult for the government to deal with it's not very effective in advancing an agenda."

I agree, Eric. Mixing it up with the US military in the forests and hills would be suicide. The better model to use would be the Irish Republican Army. Out in the rural countryside, they got their hinnie wiped by the British, but in the cities they have carried on the fight for generations. Yes, they were ultimately successful..... since there is a Republic of Ireland. Northern Ireland has been more difficult, but even though outnumbered, they are still a formidable force.

Anonymous DonReynolds October 11, 2013 7:42 PM  

ENthepeasant....."One could get into a great deal of trouble by trying to use the War between the states as a model for what's happening now."

He He. That is exactly what you just did! Thanks.

Anonymous ENthePeasant October 11, 2013 7:49 PM  

Only in the sense that I'm explaining why it's not going to be the same deal. I do not see war as the most likely answer on any side. Peaceful separation seems like a far more likely ending as it was in the Soviet Union.

Anonymous Shibes Meadowlark October 11, 2013 8:13 PM  

"What is needed is the rebirth of the traditional Western State in which the government assumes its traditional and Biblical role as the defender of the nation (again, those who are identified by a common language, faith, and ancestry) and drives out, imprisons, or kills any person or group of people who act contrary to its interests."

Totalitarianism has many ugly faces. I can only imagine what your mug looks like. Listen, what you are ultimately advocating is genocide, a purge under the guise of Christianity, via a specious claim that this action represents God’s will.


“As traditionalists, we accept that elites exist and that inequality is the natural state of mankind”.

It is clear you are a religious fraud.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Deuteronomy 10:17-19--God loves the orphan, the widow, and the stranger.

One is able to infer from this simple, beautiful passage that regardless of a person's station in life, God commands his disciples to be dignified and show dignity.


John 4:1-42
Jesus broke with societal and religious customs to honor the dignity of the Samaritan woman. He associated with a woman of mixed origins, a moral and social outsider, in public and asked her for a drink of water. He demonstrated dignity of the most highest degree-every person is precious.

God has commanded his disciples to love all of humanity. When God communicates Himself, when He fills us with Himself, He fills us with His Divine Life, with His infinite Love, for He is Love. He confirms that we must share in this Divine nature for God to attract us to Himself because sharing His Grace is His nature.

All men are equal in their natural dignity; human beings are NOT superior or inferior in this regard. Moreover, God created us in His likeness. As the children of God, we are redeemed by Christ, and bear witness to His divine calling and destiny, regardless of one's group identity and locality on this Earth. To deny these truths is to deny the authority of God. God has identified His people as those who adhere to His ways, the brotherhood of humankind. God unifies humanity under His banner.

Anonymous Noah B. October 11, 2013 8:19 PM  

"On top of that technology has shifted away from guerrillas in recent decades. With drones and IR you can't just run into the hills to escape the army any more."

Thermal IR is an incredibly valuable tool, but it does have its limitations. Millimeter-wave SAR probably is just as big a potential issue for guerillas. Then there are those pesky Guardrail aircraft...

And yet, look at the problems they've had subduing Afghanistan, where there is far less cover for insurgents.

Anonymous Shibes Meadow October 11, 2013 8:27 PM  

Meadowlark:

tl;dr

Anonymous ENthePeasant October 11, 2013 8:32 PM  

"And yet, look at the problems they've had subduing Afghanistan, where there is far less cover for insurgents."

Exactly! Don't believe it's different for one minute. In fact Islamic forces have never proven much of a problem and the problems in Afghanistan have proven remarkably similar no matter who the invader was. Not many remember now but it took the Muj three years to win after the Soviet pullout. It's almost as if someone hit the reset button and it went to 1975. I doubt very seriously if the present Afghan government would survive three months, let alone three years. Just thank God we're not fighting the NVA.

Anonymous DonReynolds October 11, 2013 8:42 PM  

ENthepeasant...."I do not see war as the most likely answer on any side. Peaceful separation seems like a far more likely ending as it was in the Soviet Union."

I agree totally. Norway separated from Sweden about a century ago, without a shot being fired. (Another good example.) These things can be accomplished through negotiation and I believe our Yankee cousins may soon see the value of an uncontested divorce. The South is a third of the land and a third of the people, roughly and it would be much better to part as friends and stay that way.

Anonymous Shibes Meadowlark October 11, 2013 8:51 PM  

"Meadowlark: tl;dr"

Shorthand version--you are a religious fraud.

Anonymous ENthePeasant October 11, 2013 8:53 PM  

Yep, I agree Don. In fact it's almost an article of faith with northerners that Southerners are too ignorant to be in their super fine word. They'll laugh all the way until they're on their knees sucking on the diversity pole, but never mind. Good riddance!!!

Anonymous hardscrabble farmer October 11, 2013 9:27 PM  

We aren't "subduing insurgents in Afghanistan", we're nation wrecking and maintaining a supply line for illicit drugs to fund black ops programs. If we had wanted to rid that country of Taliban (or whatever name they are using for the bad guys this fiscal quarter) we could have done it in six months, tops. What we do is periodically send a message to the population to stand down or we'll bomb the shit out of your next wedding reception while insuring a steady flow of heroin into Russia, the EU and the US.

And on this 2% farmers number? Bullshit. My own town does an annual report every year, very nice, filled with data, photos of Old Home Day, etc. They report that there are 2 farms in town, I know of at least 20. If a town as small as mine, with as many nosy busybody bureaucrats working up at town hall can be wrong by that much, how well do you trust the FedGov numbers? When they say 2% of Americans are farmers, they mean practicing big ag on the government tit. Rural America has more farms than you can count and while most of them are not "ag ops" (many are lifestyle farmers or self sufficient rather than commercial) they can expand in a single season to produce 10 to 20 times the volume if given the right set of circumstances.

I know most of the commenters here who live in urban areas have a distorted view of farmers as hicks and slackjawed morons caked with animal shit laying around the double wide, but the ones I know are the most resilient, inventive, intelligent folks with a strong sense of independence. Hardships are part of the lifestyle and life and death are daily realities, not philosophical distractions. Some of the farmers I know have not been in the military, but they are an exceedingly small minority- military service is part of the farming experience in the same way that the penal system is for urban yoofs.


And another odd purge of the military ranks-

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/11/20922413-air-force-general-in-charge-of-nuclear-weapons-removed-for-lack-of-trust-defense-officials?lite

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/09/admiral-fired-tim-giardina_n_4073169.html

That's right, the number 1 and number 2 nuclear weapons commanders in the US armed forces are both dismessed within days of each other.

Interesting times indeed.

Anonymous The other skeptic October 11, 2013 10:00 PM  

Re:


Air Force General removed from command of Nukes

Admiral removed from command of Nukes


Yeah. I figured that Obama wants to remove all obstacles so that that when he says "Nuke those crazy white boys" no one will refuse.

Anonymous ENthePeasant October 11, 2013 10:39 PM  

The removal of commanders is going on across the board and in all services. Most of the replacements are not exactly warriors in the traditional sense. That's the next big Obama crusade. He's planning on changing military culture. He seems to have a clear understanding that the devotion to fighting all enemies of the constitution, foreign and DOMESTIC does not leave him in a great place. However, he doesn't seem to understand that leaders such as he's appointing will not change the culture and worse, will be disobeyed if the SHTF.

Anonymous Micky Marcus October 11, 2013 11:18 PM  

You don't actually "have to" secede. You could do what we do when we decide the leadership or Board at our Country Club isn't doing a good job: vote them out or go to another country club.

Ah yes, the favorite war cry of the liberal: "Our Country Club: Love it or Leave it."

That is in fact the choice that Liberals gave the American Indians as well: "like it or leave it".

"You don't like us moving onto this empty piece of land next to your native village? Then just get the fsck out. It's a free country, right?"

Never thought I would hear Tad making THAT argument. Learn something every day, I suppose.

Hitler took same approach.

Some Jews voted with their feet, left for Palestine and formed their own very exclusive Country Club there.

Some didn't.

Never thought I would hear Tad making THAT argument. Learn something every day, I suppose.

Anonymous Shibes Meadow October 11, 2013 11:28 PM  

Meadowlark:

Thank you for your comment. Your opinion has been noted.

Sincerely,

SM

Anonymous Shibes Meadowlark October 12, 2013 12:08 AM  

It is not an opinion, but a statement of fact. You have repeatedly denigrated His Lordship with your heretical interpretation of the Good Book. Repent for your sins.

Anonymous Shibes Meadow October 12, 2013 12:13 AM  

Meadowlark:

Thank you for your comment. Your opinion has been noted.

Sincerely,

SM

Blogger Anthony Walsh October 12, 2013 1:37 AM  

"Mother of all Contractions" That's funny! Reminds me of child-birth.

Anonymous Boetain October 12, 2013 3:19 AM  

You could throw all of Nevada, excluding Clark County, in with this "Jefferson" state. Clark County can merge with CA and the ancient idiots Reid, Feinstein, and Boxer can fight over the 2 senate seats until they are 100 years old. All of the "try a machine gun today" gun ranges in Vegas could move out to Nye county next to the brothels. The Reid-loving union workers on the strip can have fun paying state income tax or being unemployed (I think CA only likes Indian casinos).

Blogger James Dixon October 12, 2013 9:03 AM  

> ...and it would be much better to part as friends and stay that way.

What makes you think they've ever been our friends?

They hate us. They always have.

Anonymous Shibes Meadowlark October 12, 2013 10:19 AM  

It is not an opinion, but a statement of fact. You have repeatedly denigrated His Lordship with your heretical interpretation of the Good Book. Repent for your sins.

Anonymous "1951" October 12, 2013 11:25 AM  

It's repent of your sins. not for your sins, Meadowlark.

Blogger Tom Kratman October 12, 2013 4:03 PM  

"Peaceful secession"? Hmmmm...now where have we heard that one before?

Of all the things I consider most unlikely, peaceful break up or secession of the United States ranks up there with...well...come to think of it, there is nothing that strikes me as less likely. We're too intermixed. We have too many people down south with yankee values and outlooks and too many rural northerners who detest their citified rulers. And moral obligations run both ways, too. (And if you don't feel a moral obligation to those of your countrymen with the same outlook you have, who have shed blood for you and yours, then forget it; you automatically lose.) Then, too, right and left despise, detest, and simply hate each others guts. We'll have a war, but it will be Beirut in the 80s, not Antietam and Gettysburg in the 1860s.

"Ah, but Czechs and Slovaks did. Russians and Ukrainians did." So? We're not any of them.

We've also had, since the promulgation of the Monroe Doctrine, what amounts to a conditional declaration of war in place directed at any military peer or near peer in this hemisphere. And, no, it would not matter that said peer arose from among ourselves, quite the opposite. (And also no, the doctine comes from an outlook so deep seated we don't even think about it.)

All that said, local secession and restructuring of the states might give us a little more time as a country. Making, say, New York City a state gives us two more probably conservative senators. Chopping off the coastal areas of southern California and making them a state would probably do likewise. Basically, I'd say that any state with two democratic senators and a big, fairly contiguous urban area is a candidate. Provided, of course, that neither DC nor Puerto Rico become states. (PR? Puerto Ricans in Puerto Rica, where Puerto Rican affairs are concerned, strike me as fairly conservative. This, however, would almost certainly change if they had a chance to parley two senate votes into more graft.)

Anonymous Shibes Meadowlark October 13, 2013 8:46 AM  

To 1951:

Thank you for your comment. Your opinion has been noted. You have, however, yet to disprove my positions.

Sincerely,

Shibes Meadowlark

Anonymous Dr. Doom October 16, 2013 1:58 AM  

Anyone who thinks the near future is going to be peaceful is living in a fantasy world fairyland filled with wood nymphs and rainbow-farting unicorns!
The Economy has imploded! The FEDGOV is broke and paying its bills with funny money pumped directly into its ass by the Federal Reserve Criminal Empire!
Thanks to Anti-White Pogroms laughingly called Diversity, the country is now filled with a Crazy Quilt of Non-Whites that don't really care for one another and will all start rioting once the Free Food runs out!
Its going to be worse than the disintegration of Yugoslavia! Any Whites thinking about separating from other Whites that have been disagreeable in the past had better take a closer look at the Demographics of the Ruins of the United States of America! Keep in mind the White category includes many Hispanics and half-breeds that identify as White.
Whites from different regions and cultures may have animosity, but when faced with Multi-Party Genocide, I suggest you not divide your numbers, and keep ideas of Regionalism for a future America that is not besieged by Non-White invaders! The Enemy is in the City and has opened the gates to the barbarians, every soldier is needed to save Civilization!

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